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John MacArthur Answers Key Questions About Election
Posted by Brian Thornton on January 15, 2007
NEW & IMPROVED UPDATE: Grace to You has now made all MacArthur audio (sermons, Q&A sessions, etc.) available online for free. This particular interview with Phil Johnson is now available HERE, and includes both the audio AND transcript. Enjoy!
About a month or so ago I received from Grace to You, the ministry of John MacArthur, a CD that contained an interview of Dr. MacArthur by his friend and editor, Phil Johnson. As most of you probably already know, Phil is one of the members of TeamPyro (also kown as Pyromaniacs), and also runs the immensely beneficial and outstanding Spurgeon Archive website.
Pam and I decided to listen to this CD on the way to meet some dear friends of ours for dinner and a night out on New Year’s Eve, and I must say that this interview of Dr. MacArthur is one of the best I have ever heard on the topic of election. I thought this interview was so important and beneficial to us that I contacted Phil to find out if it was available online somewhere for me to link to on this website and , if not, to see if I might have permission to host it right here. Phil responded back that it was not available anywhere online, and he gave me persmission to host it right here on VOTS. So, you might say that this is a VOTS online exclusive (not including all the thousands of CD copies that were sent out by GTY to those such as Pam and myself). Phil’s actual words were that he didn’t think it was online anywhere, so if you have information that it is, please let me know.
This interview of MacArthur is so good for a number of reasons. It is what I would call a no-holds-barred, politically-incorrect, biblical look at the doctrine of election. Nothing is held back by either Phil or John, and the result is a straight-forward and truthful look at a doctrine that the unregenerate find so repulsive. I would encourage anyone who has struggled with this doctrine – or has professing family members or friends whose view of election is far from the truth – to listen to this interview themselves and also to direct others to it here. Then I would encourage you to contact Grace to You to see about getting a copy for yourself. It is a CD that every true believer needs to have in his/her library.
For future reference, I will provide a permanent link to this post and audio in one of the sidebars to the right. Thanks to Phil Johnson for giving me permission to host this very important discussion on the sovereignty of God regarding His elect. Per request, the file is provided at a rate of 16kbps. Here goes:
Answering the Key Questions About the Doctrine of Election – John MacArthur
(c)(p) copyright 2006 by Grace to You. All Rights reserved. Used by permission.
PS. In light of Tim Challies’ incredible power and influence, and by his linking to this post (and the possible high volume of visitors), please do me a favor if you can. Out of consideration for my server host and limited bandwidth, please right click on the link above, select ’save as’, and copy the file to your hard drive before listening to the interview. I thank you…and my server thanks you!
UPDATE: Thanks to Abe (comments below), and completely unbeknownst to myself or Phil Johnson, this interview apparently was broadcast by Grace to You over the radio back in October of ‘06. The link for part one of that file is here, and part two is here. A transcript of the interview is also available here. – the links that were here are no longer valid. See the first link above for the audio and transcript of this important interview.
Brian said
I concur… It is a great interview! I received it from GTY a few weeks ago too.
I especially liked MacArthur’s reasoning that it’s an “American thing” to want to be independent, master of your own fate, etc… That attitude is partly why so many in our country dislike the idea of God’s sovereign election. I hadn’t thought of it from that angle before.
MacArthur does a great job here of showing how clearly the Bible demonstrates the truth of unconditional election.
Mark said
Thank you for your efforts in getting this interview. It is outstanding.
Jonathan Moorhead said
Brian, thanks for the link – it is a great resource!
Francisco said
“incredible power and influence?” You’re funny Brian!
In the Savior,
Francisco
lisa said
Thank you for letting me know about the link on your blog to this excellent interview.
I listened to this when it first became available and, as you did, found it to be one of the best I’ve heard.
Press on in His truth and His love for His glory,
Lisa
Steve Weaver said
Thanks Brother!
Tim Rettger said
I found the same dishonest reasoning and debate about those who do not believe calvin about election. That it is man trying to usurp the soveriegnty of God. In reality those I discuss it with are already saved, or at least professed to be. They or we believe we are saved and part of the elect. The problem we deal with is love for others. Our families and friends. How can a loving God not love as much as I do? I would not want, in all honesty to see my worst enemy here on earth go to hell. How can a loving God not allow my loved ones, children, wife, mother and father the chance for forgiveness of sins?! This is more the reasoning of other christians, not that they wish or want to be soveriegn over God. A big problem with debating calvinist is that I find them either unwilling to really listen to what is being said. INstead trying to one up the other by saying I believe in a soveriegn God and you don’t. You simply are making salvation your role etc.
I know I haven’t approach a biblical prosition to this but I believe it has been done enough on SI. There seems to be enought doubt on both sides to have great men on each side. So to make statements like “it is all so clear” “or it is bible and can’t be any other way” is really nothing but pride.
Tim Rettger said
By the way I do enjoy JM’s preaching and bible studies. I respect the man greatly. Just disagree, even though I would be happy to shine the man’s shoes just to meet him.
carissa said
i’m interested to listen. i used to be a member of grace community church and i love dr. macarthur’s preaching and his personality (what i’ve seen of it), too.
“incredible power and influence”….. it’s just so true, at least on some level. haha.
Kevin Rollins said
Great interview. I look forward to hearing him at Ligonier.
David said
I enjoyed the interview, but was discouraged that MacAuthur showed God’s sovereignty in the world without a balance of what Human responsibility man has. He states that “man has the freedom to choose what sin we do, and that is the extent of our freedom.” But biblically there is a tension between God’s sovereignty and human responsibility that must be presented. If you show God’s sovereignty and no human responsibility outside of your choice of sin, then you are missing a very crucial point of John’s Theology of all his Gospel and his episles. Thanks for the link!!
David said
I just read Tim Rettger’s comment and agree to a certain extent. Read D.A. Carson’s Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility: Biblical perspectives in Tension. This book is captivating, but not the bible. So approach the book with an open mind but don’t replace it with devotions. It is helpful in understanding the tension in both arena’s and will balance out the pride of those who are so persistant with the calvinistic and arminianism debate. If we could just get together on this discussion we would be correct together.
David said
One more quote and I am done. Sprugeon once wrote “I never try to reconcile friends.” This is true in the case of Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility. They are presented (especially in John’s writings) that there is a tension between both (balance is not the word to use). And Sprugeon was right these two are friends, so why reconcile something that doesn’t have to be reconciled. DS and HR are not a paradox (a self contradictory statement) but are truely antinomies (apparent contradictory statements that are both true). A system of theology that is good to used for understanding this tension between DS and HR is Middle Knowledge. Some thing I don’t agree with but it does help in our quest for our pursuit of Holiness before God. Thanks
Brian Thornton said
Hi David,
If you haven’t heard them yet, I would recommend to you and others to listen to MacArthur’s three-part series titled Chosen for Eternity. He directly covers the issue of human responsibility. I have it on my iPod from GTY’s podcast, but it appears to have been broadcast too far back and is no longer listed at Oneplace.com.
I do think that many misunderstand the meaning of human responsibility, though. Many seem to take that term to mean man is responsible to come to saving faith on his own, that it is up to him whether or not he is saved. I take it more to mean that, even though God is sovereign and is directing the steps of men, man is still responsible for his actions.
A really good example of this (which MacArthur uses in the Chosen for Eternity series) is what Peter says to the crowd in Acts 2:23 when he says, “this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”
That’s a great example, I think, of God’s sovereignty side-by-side with human responsibility. It was God’s predetermined plan that Jesus go to the cross, but the ones who did it were responsible for their own actions (even though it was God’s plan for Christ to be crucified). Therein lies the tension, I think. When we begin to attribute the truth of human responsibility to man being responsible for coming to saving faith on his own (rather than man still being responsible for his actions), I fear we begin to drift into the leaven of synergism(HT:Monergism.com).
If I am way off on this, someone please comment on it here.
Thanks,
Brian
Kevin said
Brian, and for those interested in the Chosen for Eternity MP3’s, they can be found archived here.
David said
I do agree with you Brian. I have not listened to John MacAurthurs three part series, and I think we are both on the same understanding of the tension that lies in the HR and GS. I was just thrown off where MacAurthur stated that the only free will man has is to choose his sin. there is a choice to be made in our salvation, but is truly through God’s dealing with our heart. It is truly God’s work in us not the decision that is made on our part. I just had trouble with speaking so highly about this interview. Phil Johnson was to excited about how John MacAurthur was not using notes and just speaking from the heart and I think if he had been more careful in his approach it would have been a better clip. And I am sure that MacAurthur’s three-part series is great and I will look forward to listening to it. So through all this babel on this page. I hope you know I think we are on the right track I just don’t think to highly of this clip from MacAurthur. Thanks for your time and patients!!
David
Chris said
What a complete waste of time. Just your typical “proof-text” Calvinism. Not one verse quoted within its text to mean what it is supposed to mean. Do you not all understand that the election of Isreal is just that. He chose a nation to bring about his message. Then in Romans Paul talks abuot how much of a blessing it was when they rejected him because then they could bring the message to the Gentile world. How come you can’t get it. It seems that Calvin followers are more interested in following the philosophy of men and their “idols” (MacArthur, Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Pink, etc…) than actually reading the Bible for themselves. How sad. Why not read Joseph Smith, he probably seems really deep. If you would read on past Romans 9 into chapter 10, you would see that Paul tells them that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that Believeth.” and in verse 3 “They have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” and verse 16 ” But they have not Obeyed the gospel. For Isaias saith, Lord,who hath believed our report?” So then faith cometh by Hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” or how about Psalm 50:23 “WHOSO OFFERETH PRAISE GLORIFIETH ME: AND TOHIM THAT ORDERETH HIS CONVERSATION ARIGHT WILL I SHEW THE SALVATION OF GOD.” OR EZEKIEL 18:32 “FOR I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF HIM THAT DIETH,SAITH THE LORD GOD: WHEREFORE TURN YOURSELVES, AND LIVE YE!” OR verse 27 of the same chapter “when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness thathe hath committed, and doeth that which islawful and right, HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE!”
You have to begin to read the whole Bible and understand the whole nature of God, which is not to hate, but to love his creation and wants the best for it. We do not love God if he forces us to by “electing” us. If I tell my children they must love me or else- do they really love me. No. I could go on forever with all the inconsistencies and errors of the Reformed doctrine, but what is the point. Why can’t you Reformers just believe your doctrine, set up your church, and quit always trying to debate and argue about it. That is so Unbiblical. Be saved and then do what the Bible talks about- loving your neighbor, helping the poor and sick and needy, compelling them to come in, and on and on.
Brian Thornton said
Nice strawmen, Chris.
Once again, you have proven how those who oppose the biblical doctrine of election can’t actually engage what people like MacArthur say about it, but that you instead have to build up and tear down some imaginary teaching like forcing people to love God.
Come one, Chris…did you even listen to the interview? If so, where in it did you hear MacArthur talk about God forcing people to love Him against their will? If that is what this doctrine teaches, then I want no part of it, and neither would MacArthur, I’m sure.
You can rant and rave against the doctrine of election all you want and say that you don’t like it and don’t believe it, but it is an exercise in futility to try and say that it is not clearly taught in Scripture.
You’re gonna have to do better than what you wrote above if you expect anyone to take you seriously on your position. Anyone can tear down men made of straw. The real question is, can you directly engage what MacArthur says in the interview?
drew said
“Cool stories, neat insights, psychological self-help stuff…(rap videos)…rap videos…”
Who uses rap videos in their service? Sorry, this made me chuckle that rap videos were mentioned.
darlene said
I also listened to John MacArthur’s tape on election. I thought it was excellent and agreed with ALL of the teaching…….up to the point though when he said… that one should not leave a church that does not teach this doctrine…HAS John Mac sat under the constant teaching of free will….and ALL that goes with that teaching..IT too much for OUR children and my husband and I to keep hearing all about socicology classs.. and that is what it ends up being…….ITS not the whole truth… The Lord has just opened our eyes to see, the gift of grace and gift of repentance, the gift of Salvation… that the Lord gives this to those hearts He draws to Himself……You don’t take a gift you receive it…. How the Lord converts the human soul… is a Supernatural one sided act by Almighty God initiated and acted and completed by GOd….What is said when Nicodemis asks about being born again. It does NOT say… ask Jesus in your heart. or walk the aisle…IT says the wind blows where it does and we do not know where it cometh from or where it goeth..so it is with being born again… It just blew me away for John Mac A. to say don’t get all prideful…believe me.I hurt for these people to be deceived in half truths….. we have been struggling with all the rest of the hinges that go along with ..free will teaching… loose salvation… skipping over all the bible to teach a sermon.. NO expostitory teaching.. I was disappointed with that line of thought from John Mac at the end of the tape…about staying at a church though it does not teach election.. Would he want his children to stay in this kind of church…. its been NOT PRIDE>..AT ALL to leave this church….~~~ the teaching is in charles finney teaching applauded…. which they believe he is a saint. He is a heritic.. we could not stay in that church and be honest with the teaching of the bible…my husband did try to talk to elders. they did not accept election….there are so many other rabbit trails that go along with free will teaching…..Man can asupt the Will of God? Does the unbeliever pray.. I thank you I choose you.. NO he prays thank you for saving me.. The free will teaching… was all non sense. with all the dressing of special music.. special honoring… story telling… plays… THE WORD WAS NOT EVEN ADDRESSED ONE SUNDAY… AND THEY ELDERS THERE AND PASTOR DID NOT EVEN MISS IT……. I was furious… NOTHING replaces the Word.
Kris said
We should all be very cautious that the god we believe in, pray to, and worship is the one true God of the bible, not a god of our own making. One writer here referred to making “idols” out of men and teachers such as John Calvin and others. I would assert that anyone, myself included, who does not have a right understanding of the God of the bible is dangerously prone to creating a god of our own liking, an “idol”, if you will.
Above all, scripture reveals that the Lord God is concerned for His own glory. He does love His creation and people more than we can ever understand or articulate, but that does not mean that all of our loved ones deserve to spend eternity in His presence. None of us do.
I hope synergists will at least agree that the bible teaches no one, NO ONE, is righteous. No one rises to the level of perfect goodness and sinlessness–not our loved ones, not ourselves, not the nice little old lady down the street. Because we do not rise to that level, and because the bible teaches that the wages of [all] sin is death, we should all consider ourselves locked in cells on death row. Our lives are forfeit, we are just going through the motions until we are put to death for our crimes against God. But God, in His infinite mercy and love, has chosen to pardon some, chosen to unlock the cell doors and allow some to live. We cannot unlock those doors ourselves, there is no chance for appeal or rightful claims of innocence. We are guilty. Can we fault God for pardoning some and not others when we ALL deserve the same end? And He didn’t just ignore or erase our deserved punishment, He took it himself in the person and death of Christ. If God is the “loving” god Chris describes in his post of 1/19, then the death of Christ should have been unnecessary. I heartily agree with the synergists that anyone can choose to “believe” in Christ, but we should ask ourselves very solemnly, what exactly are we believing ABOUT Him? Is it the truth as revealed in scripture, or a “truth” that appeals to what we want to believe?
Job 40:1 “And the Lord said to Job: ‘Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it.’”
Job 40:8 “Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?”
I would encourage all of us to revist scripture and, in pencil, underline words or phrases that indicate something that God has done or will do, for or to people. Do not pick out entire verses which lean one way or the other. For many of us, these verses have been drilled into our heads from earliest childhood to “prove” synergism or monergism. Instead just pick out words or phrases to see what the bible truly says about how God deals with people. As a former synergist myself, I was humbled by the sheer number of these pencil marks on the pages of my bible. The real, living Lord God isn’t the god I believed in all of my life, and I am profoundly thankful to Him for that.
Ken Tyner said
I have listened to John’s discussion on election.
If you will allow me, I will give you the answer that John claims not to have. Why does God elect some and not others?
God has given us the answer.
Exodus 20:5-6, John 14:15-24, acts 5:32, Heb 5:9,
I John 2:3-6, I Cor. 2:9….
It’s about love and loyalty to God. Those that love God and obey his commandments are elected by God to Salvation. Those that hate Him and refuse to be loyal are elected to damnation.
But it’s not just any type of love and loyalty, it’s the kind that compels a man to take up his cross to be a living sacrifice for Jesus and His word just as he sacrificed himself in love for us.
May God give life to this seed in your heart, for God looks on the heart.
May God Bless You,
Ken Tyner
Brian Thornton said
Hi Ken,
Thanks for your comments, but those who are elected to salvation are elected NOT because of anything they do (or will do). They are elected to salvation before the foundation of the world…before they have had opportunity to do anything good or bad. It is NOT according to the man who wills or the man who runs…but on God who has mercy.
Grace and peace…
Ken Tyner said
Thanks for your comments Brian, but if you will reread my statement, you will find that I made no address to man doing anything. I spake of what is in the heart of man.
This is not my opinion, but my experience. It was only two and half years ago when the Holy Spirit fell upon me.
Step back a little and take a deep breadth. you jumped too soon without considering what was said. Never assume what you think someone means, but pay attention to what they actually say.
I hope God gives you understanding of this.
Ken
Brian Thornton said
Thanks, Ken…but no need for the correction. I know what you said:
Those that love God and obey his commandments are elected by God to Salvation. Those that hate Him and refuse to be loyal are elected to damnation.
What you meant and what you said may be two very different things, but all I can go off is what you wrote. The way you worded this statement above has the electing unto salvation by God following the loving and obeying of commandments by man, and the electing unto damnation by God following the hating and refusal to be loyal by man.
And, yes…you certainly DID address man doing something: loving and obeying, and hating and disloyalty.
So, as I said, you may have meant something else, but your own statements insinuate actions by man followed by reactions from God. If this is not what you meant to say, then perhaps a clarification on your part might be in order…but – as you suggested – I am just going off of what you actually said (wrote).
Grace and peace…
Ken Tyner said
Hey Brian, I will be glad to clarify.
Man’s behavior is the reflection of his heart. As you should already know, the tree is known by his fruit.
In other words everything a man does first originates in his heart. That’s why Jesus said what comes out of a mans heart is what defiles him, ie: adultry, lies, thefts, etc..
So when I speak of love, loyalty and obedience or taking up your cross, I first speak of the intent of mans heart which is afterward produced in his behavior.
Just a John wrote, if any man says that he knows him and keeps not his commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. Our behavior does not lie, even though our hearts can betry us. If we say that we love God and don’t obey his commandments, then we are liars.
So the intent of the heart preceeds the behavior.
I am not calvinist nor armenien. I am a disciple of Jesus. It is God that teaches me truth, not man.
John 14:26, I John 2:27
Theology is a blindfold to the heart of man. It distracts men from listening to what God says.
John MacArthur said that he does not see the harmony of how every thing works out in scripture. (paraphrase).
I see perfect harmony in the scripture. You could too, but you have to cast your theology and turn your heart completely to God and learn from him, not man.
Men are not sinners because they have sinned. Men sin because they are sinners, without love and loyalty.
Sin is an abbreviation of (S)id(i)tio(n).
Mans autotheism is what compels him to sin.
The only way to crucify the flesh, is to take up your cross.
This is not a physical cross, but the cross of your heart.
Does this help you to understand what I mean?
Ken
Ken Tyner said
Hey Brian,
I figure since you haven’t responded yet, that you must be real busy or still trying to think of a way to respond.
So let me give you some additional thoughts to consider.
This is not a personal attack on you, though some things may be considered offensive.
You have stated in your own words that: you are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone. I was reading about you on your web site.
My thoughts here are on faith, specifically.
You stated previously that mans salvation is not based on obedience or loyalty. Here’s my problem with that.
According to the scripture itself faith is obedient,
Romans 16:26, Acts 5:32, I Peter 2:7-8, and the only people unto which God gives the Holy Ghost to is the obedient.
According to the scripture itself faith is loyal,
Rev 17:14, I Corinthians 4:2, Matt 24:45,
and these are the chosen “elect” of God.
You are claiming some kind of faith that is not even consistant with the bibles own description of faith.
If you remove obedience and loyalty from faith, then all you are left with is hypocrisy,
Mark 7:6-23, Matt 15:7, Matt 24:42-51.
All that I am teaching is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. But your theology says no, don’t have to, don’t need to.
Your doctine of faith is in complete contridiction to everything that Jesus himself taught of faith. So how can you say that you have faith in Jesus when you do not believe what Jesus taught about faith.
I told you that theology is a blindfold, that hides the truth of God’s word. You must turn to God with all your heart, not all your theology. Your type of faith is going to destroy you and everyone else that believes the way you currently do. You are making Gods word void through the doctrines of men.
I hope you take time to ponder these things and to review all the scriptures that I have referred you to.
May God open your heart to understand,
Ken
Darlene said
Hey Ken…I have not been on here for a while. You give to much credit to the flesh to come to God, buddy… And that is what you wrote on your first email..” those that love God and obey his commandments are elected to God to Salvation…ect..”..We ain’t got it in us to even love or obey God as sinners……..we love sin~~man….that’s our nature…….Until the Holy Spirit ALONE regenerates us…… NO man seeketh after God. The natural man knoweth NOT the things of God. Man is continutally EVIL,DEPRAVED, CORRUPT,BLIND,DEAF,DEAD IN TRESPASSES,SLAVES TO SIN.HE WANTS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD. UNTIL THE HOLY SPIRIT REGENERATES MAN….BY THE PREACHING OF THE WORD OF GOD..THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVERTS….. THIS IS BEING BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE…it ain’t no decision I made..or decided…..or walkin the aisle…GOD ALONE CONVERTS THE SOUL OF A MAN/WOMAN…HIS CHOOSING..HE CHOOSE US..WE DID NOT CHOOSE HIM. BORN AGAIN IS A SUPERNATURAL ONE SIDED ACT BY ALMIGHTY GOD,INTIATED AND ACTED AND COMPLETED BY GOD ALONE…that NOooo man can boast… THIS IS WHAT SCRIPTURES HAS BEEN TEACHING ME… NO MAN(unbeliever)… seeketh after God.
Those that the Father draws comes to Him..BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD..NOT BY ANYTHING WE DO..WHEN WE ARE REGENERATED..QUICKENED..CONVERSION…….GOD SEES THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST.. NOT US~~WE STINK…… IT IS NOTHING …NOTHING…IN THE SINNER THAT DESIRES GOD. I am not talking about the PHYSICAL OR MENTAL DEFECT.. ITS man’s NATURE DEFECT I am talking about…..HIS NATURE WILL NOT OR CANNOT COME TO GOD…remember the fall of adam..spiritually dead from disobedience…..not physcially..adam didn’t die till maybe 900 years later……… YOU DON’T HAVE TO TEACH A SINNER TO SIN.. HE SINS BECAUSE ITS HIS NATURE and he loves to sin……a baby says~~ mine..mine..mine..no….no.. no….so does an adult unbeliever…..that’s rebillion..Unbelievers are in rebellion…not ignorance…….and you know we, who are true believers we still sin..NOT habitually or practice..but..our flesh will NEVER be saved…we seek to please God…and repent when we sin..and try to renew our minds, by reading God’s Word…..ITS all by the enabling of the Holy SPirit…a true believer has changed and seeks to live a life pleasing to the Father…because of God’s LOVE we now can love God.. WE love because HE FIRST.. loved US… ..BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ALONE HE changes us……..man cannot obey BY himself.. its the Holy Spirit in US..this is being born again… regenerated heart…. Holy Spirit teaching us… AND sure people can do good things…unbelievers do good things all the time…… unbelievers give money to the poor,.. unbelievers take care of their family and unbelievers take care of their neighbors…give their life sometimes…..that is common grace…..we are not as evil as we can be(because of common grace..)..believe me…we would all choose to be king of the hill and anilate each other if it was not for common grace……WE don’t be as evil as we can be…. because of common grace that restrains us……… we would all take care of number one. ME..and knock anyone off who got in our road………… THE STANDARD sacrifice IS HOLY PERFECTION… ONLY CHRIST JESUS CAN BE OUR AVENUE TO GOD… ITS NOTTTTTTTT IN US to come to God…we aren’t accepted when we decide to come to God..HE DRAWS US..THE HOLY SPIRIT IS INTERCEDING FOR US …GOD SEES THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS..NOT US….GRACE ALONE..scripture says…….the Holy Spirit regenerates our heart…ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD…ALL THE GLORY TO GOD..FOR SAVING ME…. IT IS MERCY ALONE..IT IS GRACE ALONE..FAITH ALONE..THESE ARE ALL GIFTS FROM GOD. we did not come up with this saving faith….yea we have faith.. its an educational faith…ect… WE CAN’T DO SQUAT… WE DON’T HAVE THE FAITH TO SAVE US OR TO KEEP US.. ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN TEACH US and KEEP US…..PAUL WAS NOT LOOKING FOR GOD ON THE ROAD TO DAMACUS..GOD WAS SEEKING PAUL.. HE WAS RADICALLY CHANGED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT…THAT IS ONE EXAMPLE… GOD ALONE CHANGES THE HEART… I GIVE GLORY TO GOD FOR SAVING MY SOUL… HE ALONE DID ALL THE WORK..AND HE WILL NOT SHARE HIS GLORY WITH ANYONE…GLORY TO GOD FOR HIS MERCY AND GRACE TO UNDESERVED SINNERS…
I was born again only a few months ago..TO GOD BE THE GLORY FOR CHOOSING ME..AND SAVING ME…… great chatting with you all… In His Mercy, Grace, and Faith ALone…
Ken Tyner said
Every one seems to want an argue works. I’m not teaching works for salvation. I’m teaching love, loyalty and expectation. I keep talking about the heart and others keep talking about works.
It’s not about doing things. It’s about loving God. That’s not a work. However, the works of obedience and loyalty will follow those that love God, and are born of the Spirit.
Jesus said repent or perish. He will not give his Spirit to anyone before they repent of a broken heart.
I’m am not the one you are arguing with, Jesus is.
Ken
Darlene said
Hi Ken…You don’t understand buddy. Your blinded and will not see until the Holy SPirit opens your eyes.. IT was the same with me, I said..”I made a decision for Christ..for years I said this..THEN~THE HOLY SPIRIT OPEN MY EYES TO SEE..HE WAS WORKING ON ME ALL THE TIME..THEN KA BOOM..I SAW..HE CHANGED ME..HE CONVERTED MY SOUL..I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MY SALVATION..”Salvation is of the Lord” to whom HE pleases..Not according to our works. Until the Lord reveals His Marvelous Grace and Mercy for us to see,we DO NOT COME BY OUR LOVE AND LOYALITY,DID YOU EVER SEE A DEAD MAN IN A CORSPE MAKE A DECISION? THAT IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS WE ARE DEAD IN OUR TRESPASSES…UNTIL THE LORD REVEALS AND MAKES US ALIVE….WE KNOW NOTHING OF THE THINGS OF GOD….. OUR nature WILL NOT LET US COME TO LOVE GOD…WE LOVE OUR SIN AND DARKNESS, this is the unbeliever………The gospel of Christ is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION everyone that believeth(THE POWER COMES FROM GOD FIRST TO BELIEVE)…to the Jew first and also the Greek.For it is THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD REVEALED.(unbeliever is unrighteous)… from faith to faith as it is written, The just shall live by faith” ..Romans 1:16,17..IT IS NOT OUR FAITH THAT SAVES US. OR OUR FAITH THAT KEEPS US..ITS THE HOLY SPIRIT’S PROMISE…IT IS HIS FAITH THAT KEEPS US…GLORY TO GOD FOR ALLLLLLLLL HIS GIFTS….. You are not responded BY anyone now in these emails.. because what we try to explain.. will not change your heart(only the Holy Spirit can change your heart.)… Only the Lord can change your heart to see we cannot love God FIRST..its not in us to love God..And the love we talk about with God..HIS Love is when we had nothing to do with God…..The love you talk about…its not even in right perspective buddy..that love is pride and we are doing God a favor.. it ain’t no favor…..I am not talking about works…I am talking about the unbelievers NATURE… The bible says. the heart is evil continually. SO how can unbeliever come to God…he loves evil…. HE CAN’T his nature will not let him…. UNTIL the Holy Spirit converts the soul…we will have false conversions…true believers will perservere till the end…BE praying for you buddy that the Holy SPirit gives you mercy to see we are absolutely at His mercy and grace for saving us. You don’t understand..our mind..was affected by the fall of adam..our emotions and will.. ARE DEAD……we think we can do this and that.. we ain’t got it in us TO DO NOTHING..EACH BREATHE THE LORD GIVES ALL…..an unbeliever is selfish and thinkssssss I will do this for God..come to Him…scriptures teach we do not seek God..God is seeking His people… This is why some may not repsond to email..Please read these verses… John 1:12-13….. 2 Tim 2:24-26….Romans 6:17. 1Peter 1:3…ICorn.1:30..Romans5:6..James 1:18.1Peter 1….Read these buddy… I give ALL the Glory to God for saving me.. that’s what it comes down too.. who gets the glory? man. the preacher..or God.. TO God be the GLory for just things he has done..He loved us.. so then we can then love…
Ken Tyner said
Darlene, below is my personal testimony. I know exactly what you are talking about. I know that there is absolutely nothing that I could do to save myself or to make me worthy of salvation. That really isn’t even a question with me.
But it doesn’t matter if you belive in predestination, free will or election. Every born again believer will have manifested repentence, love, loyalty and obedience. These are the proof of the Holy Spirit in you.
The fact that you and others are hell bent on denying repentence, love, loyalty and obedience is proof that you are not born again. It’s not me that you resist but the Holy Ghost. I have tried you and proved you to be hypocrites and unregenerate of the Holy Spirit.
Your theology has decieved you into believing you have something you have never attained. And unless you repent, you will die in your sin. It amazes me when someone claims to be born again fights against every teaching of Jesus on repentence, love, loyalty and obedience. If you wil not listen to Jesus, you certainly will not listen to me.
Ken
Two years ago my teenage daughters were visiting with me for the summer. My youngest likes to sketch and is really good at it. So I paid her a father’s compliment.
“That is so good, and I am so proud of you”. You would expect an exciting response from her. But this is what I got.
Thank you Daddy, but you know Daddy; a long time ago “you broke my heart”. Well that threw me back a couple of feet in astonishment.
She began to explain how that when she was little, her older sister, by 18 months, was practicing her writing and I gave her a fathers’ compliment.
So she, the youngest, went and did some writing also and in excitement brought it to me so that I could see her writing too. I told her with a little time and practice her writing would be good too. No father’s compliment. It broke her heart. By now my heart was so terribly broken that I hurt her. I couldn’t withhold the tears that began to pour out of my eyes. I love her so much that I would never do anything on purpose to hurt her.
You know that you don’t do things to hurt those that you love. This is the single statement that was about to change my life.
Two weeks after the girls left me I was sitting on my porch meditating on the word of God when I began to remember this story with my daughter.
Again I broke into tears as I rehearsed it. This is when I said in my heart “you don’t do things to hurt those you love” and your behavior doesn’t lie.
All of a sudden I began to remember all the things I have done to hurt God. It was like a flood gate of remembrance was opened up.
It was the first time in 22 years that I realized that I did not truly love God as I thought. I was not faithful. I still lived for my pleasure in this world, and not for Him.
I was so devastated that I just wanted to die. I could not bear this shame that I had hurt God so much and in so many ways. And I knew that I didn’t know how to stop.
I fell down on my knees in such great shame before God. I cried out to him to kill me, so that I could never again hurt him. I didn’t care about this world anymore, or my life.
I could not live in the torment of this great shame, nor could I bear to hurt him anymore. I deserved above all men to be cast into the lake of fire.
Immediately when I poured out the grief of my heart to God, He was right there. All of a sudden the Holy Spirit fell upon me. God was in me and all around me. It was like being baptized.
He was pleased with me, and showed me that true repentance of a broken heart leads to self abandonment and submission to Him.
These are the people in which God gives his Holy Spirit to and the freedom from serving sin. He makes himself known to them and they love him unlike they ever could have imagined before.
You see; I never received Jesus as my savior. He received me and poured out upon me the Holy Ghost, because he rejoiced in the brokenness and humility of my heart that day.
Now I am forever His servant unto death. Jesus is my Lord and my King and my God forever more. To whom much is forgiven, they love much.
I hope that the “religion” of Christianity doesn’t deceive you as it did me.
Ken Tyner
Brian Thornton said
Ken,
Watch your comments or you will be prohibited from posting. You presume to know the eternal state of someone due to their disagreement with you and your position.
Secondly, you are swatting at strawmen…I am not aware of anyone here denying the need for repentance, etc.
Ken Tyner said
Brian, I’m sorry to dissapoint you but I do know the eternal state of others. I have received the true baptism of the Holy Ghost, and the gift of discerning spirits.
I have met God, I know God, I know the will of God and I know the doctrine of God.
Disagreeing with me will niether save you nor condemn you, but disagreeing with God will condemn you.
You have chosen to be a follower of man, instead of following God. In this, you have condemed yourself.
I have only tried to help you break through your theological barrier. There is nothing else I can do for you.
I hope that you will understand this before it is too late.
Ken
Ken Tyner said
I have set up a new web site, if you are interested.
just click on my name and it should take you there.
Ken
Wes said
If you dont beleive in Gods divine election, God hasnt shown you yet. He showed me (Nothing funny however), he broke me of my self reliance and dependence on my own autonomy. If I belive to be in control than I can choose whatever I want even God. Tower of Babel man said “Let us make” God said to them “Let me Make”.Mans rejection is universal (in all his thinking) God must break us of this. Our humanness (Natural , unspiritual thinking)always questions Gods purposes and authority. Dont Judge a doctrine by its cover Love God and seek him. Have you heard the cliche’ “Let Go Let God” We have to let go of our strength and fill ourselves on his word. I know how divisive this doctrine becomes, it brings lots of trouble to a lot of people, but if we want to have Christ in a all purity and honesty we will love all Gods truth. Perhaps you dont believe it because you dont fully get it, sounds mean & cruel to you to you. We all need balanced perspectives not our own bias or agenda. There is many voices in the world today especially in Christiandom, Who are you listening to?
Wes said
The election I believe is free from us in a since, because God still requires repentence, faith at salvation. Its a gift from God thou. True Election does’nt deni godliness it doesnt deni our wills. It upholds Godliness.Our will is made alive by God because he decided to do so. We chose God out of a gift he gave us. We were dead in sin Eph 2, he made us alive.Its not that technical. Election doesnt spurn the right to love my way, my rights, my sin. True Election deni’s Godlessness. My faith is a faith that works (James). True fruit>> Love, Joy, peace, patience, Kindness, Goodness, gentleness, Self control. Walk in the spirit not the Law. The spirit upholds the law and fulfills the law. A true heart loves God, loves others. The argument over election choice etc., is not a arguement of who’s right and wrong, the problem doesnt even have anything to do with election. Election is not the issue. Its your heart. Do you trust God? and if you trust him do you submit to his spirit? I know there are lots of people who I know love God and dont agree to election. Im not shure why, I think they have never heard a balanced view on it, or never thought much about it. They simple love Jesus and want to do his will. Sometimes people who beleive election will go to extreme, I beleive there is extreme on both sides.Some electionist beleive in liscense. Free will people always see the extreme side for some reason. They hear, I beleive God is bad if he does that, they dont research it, compare scripture to scripture.I went to a church who really deni election because along time ago they had a preacher and that preacher taught liscence and the people became indulgent in sin and some became nortorious sinners.We must Love God, love others out of a true heart from God this is the fulfillment of the law. Trust God with You, quit doing Christianity your way, renew your mind >> get balanced perspective, and run the race with joy Yeah -Hooooooo!
Dave Olson said
Hey everyone. I’m a fan of MaCarthur. I didn’t listen to the interview, but I have heard enough of Macarthur to know where he stands on election.
I read a book recently called “why I’m not an arminian”. It looks cheezy from the cover, but it’s a very well written book that deals with these tough questions on a much deeper level. A rare perspective.
To go off topic, if I may, I would like to know if anyone knows where I can get the MP3 of the MaCarthur and R.C. Sproul bebate on baptism?
God bless
Brian Thornton said
I just saw a link to it in a blog post, but I can’t remember where. AAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!
I’ll keep looking…
FOUND IT! Well, the link I saw the other day referencing this debate, anyway. Pulpit Magazine provided a link to it in this post that discusses how young is too young when it comes to baptizing children.
It turns out the link is to the Ligonier Store where the audio can be purchased. So I still don’t know if there is legitimate copy of it out in cyberspace somewhere.
Dave said
Thanks Brian.
Some quotes from from the book I mentioned.
[i]“The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God’s ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires.”…
The incompadibilist seeks to find some room for the sovereignty of God within the assumption of libertarian freedom. But incompatibilism fails badly as a way of understanding the relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom. First, it assumes a libertarian view of freedom. Human beings always possess the power of contrary choice. Second, incompatibilism insists that such a notion of freedom is the necessary condition for moral accountability: I cannot be held responsible if I could not choose to do otherwise. Third, in this view the sovereignty of God is necessarily limited by human freedom. If God has ordained that I perform some act, I could not choose otherwise and thus I am not truly free. While this collection of assumptions constitutes a coherent whole, each is no more than an assumption. And while they are all taken as having self-evident power within Arminian theological circles, we can find no evidence that scripture teaches or assumes any of them.—
—Scripture seems to deny the very sort of independence that the libertarian freedom demands. Human beings are never independent of God. Whereas incompatibilism holds that libertarian freedom–independence from all causes and forces external to the will–is the prerequisite for responsibility, the Bible seams to assume the opposite: responsibility is the necessary condition for freedom. The gift of responsible choice has meaning and significance not because of any connection to libertarian freedom but because it is an essential aspect of our imaging God. Freedom in scripture is not independence from God and His will but dependence upon God and our faithful participation in His Kingdom.
True freedom, freedom in the Biblical sense, is the liberty to obey God without restraint, without sin standing in the way.—
—Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.—
—Jesus said: “The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks” ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 ). A person chooses and acts according to his character. The will is not independent of the person and nature who chooses. We do what we want to do ( Deuteronomy 30:19; Matthew 17:12 Jas 1:14), even though our characters, which are themselves determined by a myriad of forces external to us and outside of our control, determine what we want to do. Personal character is not nearly as spontaneous as those who see the will as a power of contrary choice like to suggest.[/i]—
(Taken from the book “why I am not an arminian”)
Brian Thornton said
Thanks for the quotes, Dave.
abe carranza said
hey brian, everyone
here is a link for all the macarthur mp3s (that i know of) that have ever been posted on OnePlace freely by GTY. I dont know much about the maintainer of this site but please drop him a note thanking him for making Macarthurs mp3 archived and available for download!
http://www.traviscarden.com/resources/podcast-archives/grace-to-you/
God bless.
-abe
abe carranza said
the entire Chosen By God series is there too. btw
-abe
Brian Thornton said
Thanks, Abe.
I was not aware that this interview had ever aired from GTY, or was available elsewhere on the internet. Before I ever hosted it here, I emailed Phil Johnson to see if he knew if it was available anywhere else on the web so that I would not duplicate it unnecessarily. He told me back in January that he was not aware of it being available on the web anywhere, which is why I hosted it here.
Thanks for the information, and the link to it, which also has the transcript of the interview if anyone is interested.