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Bothered By Derek Webb’s Gospel…and Conversion
Posted by Brian Thornton on August 15, 2007
Some of you may be familiar with the music of Derek Webb. He was formally a member of Caedmon’s Call. I even have a link to his music over at the right, which I might reconsider…I don’t know yet.
Anyway, Derek was interviewed recently and was asked a direct question concerning what the gospel is. Here is what he said:
What a great question. I guess I’d probably…my instinct is to say that it’s Jesus coming, living, dying, and being resurrected and his inaugurating the already and the not yet of all things being restored to himself…and that happening by way of himself…the being made right of all things…that process both beginning and being a reality in the lives and hearts of believers and yet a day coming when it will be more fully realized. But the good news, the gospel, the speaking of the good news, I would say is the news of his kingdom coming the inaugurating of his kingdom coming…that’s my instinct.
Several people have taken issue with Derek’s response, including some involved with the great new blog over at 9Marks, and I would tend to agree with their assessment. I also pulled up the audio of the interview and listened to about the first five minutes or so. And I’ve got to say that, not only was I concerned with his view on the gospel but, I was equally concerned – if not more so – with his conversion experience. When asked how he came to know Christ, Webb responded by saying, “Kicking and screaming.” He then went on to say, “Jesus kinda pursued me and caught me”. He then talked about having some additional 6-10 “moments of enlightenment” since then, but concluded by saying that what I just quoted was his conversion experience.
If you get a chance, go to the interview and listen to just the first several minutes, which is where Derek gives his view of the gospel and his conversion.
Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but what he said concerns me somewhat, as it has apparently concerned others, such as those over at the 9Marks blog. Some have defended Webb by pointing to the lyrics of his songs. I would tend to put more weight on what actually comes out of one’s mouth when asked a direct question about something as important as what the gospel is, or how someone became a Christian.
Billy Marsh said
I was also bothered and disappointed by Webb’s response. The ambiguity was thick in his gospel presentation. This type of gospel mentality is replete in the Emergent Church. I fear it is gaining ground and popularity in orthodox churches due to its inclusiveness and open-minded tone.
By the way, I liked your blog. I appreciate the “Sheep/Shepherd” theme. We have a lot of the same tastes in literature, music, and theological persuasions.
Brian Thornton said
Hi Billy!
Thanks for commenting. I don’t know if you have had a chance to listen to any of the audio of Webb’s interview, but I was even more concerned when I actually heard him say what he said. And as I mentioned above, his response to the question of how he came to Christ – kicking and screaming – I did not appreciate at all.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post a comment. I’m glad you like the site, and I hope you will come back and post again sometime.
Ross said
I’ve never posted on a blog (and I’m not really sure Mr. Webb wants or needs someone to defend him) but I feel compelled to write a response. I’ve read the 9Marks blog and listened to the podcast. I know from hearing Derek Webb on several occasions that he absolutely believes in the substitutionary atonement and imputed righteousess of Christ. In 2005 and early 2006 I had the privilege of attending 3 Webb performances and remember coming away thinking that, as talented as he is as a songwriter, he missed his calling to preach. He took the opportunity to boldly proclaim Christ crucified for sinners on each occasion.
I distinctly remember hearing him at a United Methodist Church in Panama City on 1/21/06. The flier called it “Derek Webb, Music and Words on: ‘The Church, American Culture, and the Meaning of the Gospel’”. I don’t recall much about the music but one thing he said had a big impact on me. He was encouraging the crowd to give money to a ministry he was supporting (”Blood Water Mission” I think). After he explained the purpose of the ministry he stopped and told us not to give out of a sense of burden or to receive blessing from God b/c Christ had ALREADY GIVEN TO THE POOR FOR US. This was the doctrine of imputed righteousness in a practical situation that sounded to good to be true even though it was (just like the gospel should always sound to our sinful ears). The gospel is radical and Derek has a great way of getting that across in his words and music.
I guess his doctrinal position could have changed in the last 18 months but, at the time, he was solid. I haven’t seen him since January 2006 but I would be shocked to find out that he now denies the gospel after hearing him proclaim it so forcefully in the not-so-distant past.
Also, I’m confused about your concern regarding his conversion account. Weren’t we all children of wrath at one time, dead in sin, haters of God, kicking and screaming against God and at enmity with Him until He regenerated us and made us willing and gave us the ability to see the beauty of Christ? Unless you believe conversion preceeds regeneration, I think you would have to agree with Derek. Am I missing something? Sorry but it wouldn’t be the first time.
God bless you Brian. Don’t give up on Brother Derek, a “saint and sinner” like you and me.
Brian Thornton said
Hi Ross,
Thanks for commenting. And don’t worry…I haven’t given up on Derek. I am just disappointed and concerned at his responses to the questions that were posed to him.
My fear is that his response to the question of what is the gospel probably didn’t contain enough gospel truth to save. If an unbeliever heard Webb’s “gospel” for the first time…I doubt it would have any regenerating power due to its lack of true gospel content. Yes, it is most certainly God who saves, but He has chosen to save through a particular means…the proclamation of the gospel. Did Derek’s answer contain the evangel which the Holy Spirit uses as the means to regenerate? I have my doubts.
Secondly, I think I would disagree that I came to Christ kicking and screaming. That implies being brought to salvation against my will, and I believe that I most certainly came to Christ willingly and joyfully. Derek wasn’t asked what he was doing prior to coming to Christ, but HOW he came to Christ. His answer seemed to indicate that he did not want to be saved…even after he WAS saved. His answer just gave me a bad impression of what it must have been like for him when he was saved. Also, he did not talk at all of repentance and faith in Christ alone, either in his gospel answer or his conversion answer.
Again, I have my doubts that he was kicking and screaming as he was coming to Christ. That just doesn’t seem to agree with my understanding of what it means to come to Christ in saving faith…repenting of sin and placing faith and trust in Him alone for forgiveness of sin resulting in justification before a holy and righteous and just God.
Does that make sense?
Thanks for commenting, and feel free to come back anytime and share your thoughts.
Ross said
I can see where you’re coming from and understand your disappointment in his gospel summary. I agree that it fell short of the content necessary to hear for saving faith. My point was to let you know that I HAVE heard Derek proclaim the true, full gospel to groups of people faithfully and boldly. I thought that might be helpful.
Regarding the conversion issue, I need to listen to the interview again. Again I agree with you that we come willingly to Christ (conversion) but I know we also agree that it is Christ who makes us willing (regeneration). I can completely identify with Derek’s language of “kicking and screaming” prior to regeneration. Even Paul “kicked against the goads” according to Christ himself. I guess I hear it more as Derek magnifying the sovereign grace of God in his salvation.
“His answer seemed to indicate that he did not want to be saved even after he was saved”. I didn’t hear this but, like I said, I need to listen again.
Thanks for responding to my post.
David Paul Regier said
Who among you believes that anyone can give a full presentation of the gospel on a radio interview that will satisfy the slavering desire of a bunch of bloggers who are ready to point out the slightest inadequacy? As I read over the comments at 9marks, I felt like people were laying in wait, ready to say, “I KNEW he was emergent!”
The language of “kicking and screaming” belongs to C.S. Lewis, who we all know is burning in hell because he was an Anglican. It essentially means that the truth does violence to our unregenerate selves.
Brian Thornton said
Well, you cannot group me in with any such category of bloggers who have been laying in wait to label Derek as Emergent.
I would react the way I did regardless of who the person was, be it Derek Webb, John MacArthur or Mark Dever.
In this age of evangelical ambiguity and vagueness, I believe Mr. Webb missed a great opportunity for clarity and precision with respect to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Scott said
Nothing wrong with “kicking and screaming.” It is awesome he identified Jesus as being the one to find him. But…
…How many ‘conversion’ experiences does somebody need? Words mean things. If he means to express deepening spiritual walk and understanding then I would expect a “song writer” to be able to articulate that better.
His answer to what the gospel is was right from 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. No problem with that.
Webb certainly is important to some (why else conduct a podcast interview?) but I personally don’t understand the commotion.
Brian Thornton said
Scott,
Thanks for commenting. To me, coming to Christ “kicking and screaming” implies being brought against one’s will, and no one comes to Christ UN-willfully.
Also, regarding his statement about Jesus being the one who found him, he said it this way: “Jesus kind of pursued me and kind of found me”.
I have some other thoughts on this, but I have to run right now. Thanks again for taking the time to comment!
Scott said
Brian,
Actually, no one comes to Christ at all unless the Holy Spirit makes them alive from death (Eph. 2). So, you may be correct in one aspect. But I don’t understand “kicking and screaming” in this context. It is the day-to-day denial in our physical lives of the sovereignty of God to act as He will and EXERT His will. When we submit to that AWESOME (not the crooner version of the word) power, and love, and mercy, and salvation then and only then are we made alive. Then and only then will be come willingly — because we now realize we belong.
The “kind of” language is part of what I am referencing when I said a song-writer should be more articulate. He was ‘wishy-washy’.
I’m almost sorry I took the time to listen. This commotion is still regrettable as I believe other less-well known people would have given better, clearer, more-succinct, and Biblically supported answers to the interviewer. Such is the short-coming of “professional autobiographers.”
Brian Thornton said
Actually, no one comes to Christ at all unless the Holy Spirit makes them alive from death
Totally agreed
It is the day-to-day denial in our physical lives of the sovereignty of God to act as He will and EXERT His will.
But, Webb wasn’t asked about his day-to-day sanctification after salvation…he was asked about his regeneration…his salvation…how he came to saving faith in Christ alone.
I still maintain that no one comes to Christ kicking and screaming, against their will.
His [Webb's] answer to what the gospel is was right from 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. No problem with that.
Part of what he said in his answer may be found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, but he most certainly did not include everything in his answer that is found in Paul’s gospel as found in 1 Cor. 15. I don’t think we can separate out verses 1-4 as the ‘gospel’ without looking at verses 1-11…that is the proper context of the gospel which Paul preached to the Corinthians, and it includes more than the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
Paul’s gospel in 1 Cor. 15 included – along with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ – the following:
1. Substitutionary atonement for sin
2. Propitiation of sin
3. The need to receive the gospel
4. The requirement of faith
5. Christ being the fulfillment of prophecy
6. Salvation is by the grace of God
7. Results in sanctification (which assumes initial repentance).
How much of what I just listed can be found in Derek Webb’s gospel according to the audio interview?
Thanks again for commenting. Please feel free to do so anytime.