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Who Said It
Posted by Brian Thornton on March 7, 2008
See if you can tell who said this. He is a youth pastor (obviously, from the quote) in a large “evangelical” church who’s star is on the rise (though not necessarily from his position as a youth pastor), and he is very well known. That is all the hint I am going to give. Here it is:
“My goal as a youth pastor is to empty those chairs and get the kids out doing something. They need to discover that they can do something, that they have value.”
Let me know what you think about his goal for those under his teaching.
UPDATE:
The person who said this is Mark Hall, lead singer for the increasingly popular CCM band Casting Crowns, and Youth Pastor for Eagles Landing First Baptist Church, McDonough, GA.
Mike Leake said
This is intriguing Brian. As a youth pastor myself I find this a really interesting quote. Before I fully critique the quote I would want to know what it says in context. If he has a correct understanding where their value comes from, and understands that their ability to “do something” comes from God alone. Then in some ways I find this no different than William Carey’s “Expect great things from God…attempt great things for God”.
But I am guessing that this guys theology is whack. And what he is really saying is that theology and bible teaching doesn’t matter…only social action. You mean something. Find what you do best and go do it. Sounds wise, but divorced from Christ-centeredness it is deadly and a waste of a life.
So when do we find out who said it? I don’t keep up on the youth pastor types anymore…so I’ve no clue.
Brian Thornton said
Here is the quote in context (it is from a secular magazine interview):
“We try to use the teens’ talents and help them start learning to serve people,” he says. “There are all sorts of ministries at [our] church and the kids are in the process of learning about their spiritual gifts. We want them to find out their gifts and use them. We all need to do that – otherwise we’re wasting our time.”
“The blue chairs in our youth room are my enemy. My goal as a youth pastor is to empty those chairs and get the kids out doing something. They need to discover that they can do something, that they have value.”
“I don’t think most of us know what we believe or really own our faith until we’re pouring into someone else,” he adds. “That’s what it’s all about.”
To give you even more context, I know for a fact that his church uses the Rick Warren SHAPE material to help people determine their spiritual gifts.
Mike Leake said
Thanks for providing the context. Here is one thing that I find really telling. “I don’t think most of us know what we believe or really own our faith until we’re pouring into someone else”. Here’s my question…if we don’t know what we believe, then what exactly are we pouring into someone else? I understand that doing ministry helps us to experience our faith more. There is a sense in which I agree. But that is NOT what it is all about.
Thanks for providing this Brian. I am very interested to find out who said it.
Brian Thornton said
See the bottom of the main post for the answer…
Mike Leake said
I had no idea that he is also a youth pastor…how in the world could you possibly be a best selling artist, travel, and still shepherd a youth group. Wow!
Brian Thornton said
how in the world could you possibly be a best selling artist, travel, and still shepherd a youth group
I think the right answer is…YOU CAN’T.
Wes Holder said
Brian, I enjoy your website. Your desire to give God the glory for all things is very evident by the things you post. However, I am surprised to see this post. I personally know Mark Hall and have witnessed his walk, or shall I say run, of faith. I’ve heard his teaching and find it theologically sound (like it matters what I find). He just wants each student to know they have value in the body of Christ and they need to be using thier talents to serve with the purpose of glorifying God. He wants the students to be others focused and not so absorbed with self (to that I say amen). He is very dedicated to being a shepherd. He is with his flock every Wednesday night,then leaves for the next city on the tour, and is back teaching his students and leading praise and worship for the 2nd service on Sunday mornings. He was also wise enough to know that someone needs to be on campus at all times for the students. That is why “we” (ELFBC – my church family) have Reagan Ferris to co-shepherd our youth (who by the way is phenomenal).
My brother Mike…you said, “But I am guessing that this guys theology is whack. And what he is really saying is that theology and bible teaching doesn’t matter…only social action. You mean something. Find what you do best and go do it. Sounds wise, but divorced from Christ-centeredness it is deadly and a waste of a life.” Let me put your concerns at ease…Mark may be the most Christ-centered man I know.
Wes Holder said
Brian, I miss our discussions in CREATE. There are a few more us that believe the truth about the sovereignty of God in all things. I’ve enjoyed teaching it and have seen some incredible fruit. Thanks again for your passion. What a gracious God we serve!
Brian Thornton said
Hi Wes,
It is good to hear from you. I too miss our discussions. Thank you for posting and expressing your concerns. Allow me to explain why I did this post on Mark Hall and Casting Crowns.
Granted, the quote I cited comes from a secular magazine interview (H Magazine – a local publication specifically for Henry County, GA), but in an 8-page feature article with Hall and the band on the front cover, I guess I expected to see at least some mention of the context of their ministry being centered on Christ (there is not even one mention of Christ anywhere in the article). You stated that Mark may be the most Christ-centered man you know, and that may well be, I don’t know. What I do know is that you wouldn’t be able to tell that from this feature piece on him and the band.
The piece is so generic and void of any mention of the person and work of Christ or true discipleship in Mark’s or the band’s ministry that it could easily be about a youth leader and band from virtually any religion pushing works-based righteousness. Again, I will say it…there is absolutely no mention anywhere of this being a Christ-centered ministry. It may be (again, I understand this is from a secular piece), but one certainly doesn’t see it from the quotes cited in the article, either from Hall or the students in the youth group.
Finally, speaking of quotes, I was saddened as I read the direct quote from Hall pertaining to what his goal as a youth pastor is – to get the kids out doing something, and to help them discover they have value. Wes! My brother…shouldn’t the goal of any undershepherd of Christ’s church be to help reveal to those under his care how utterly depraved and hopeless and condemned they are before a holy and just God without the atoning work of Christ applied to their account through repentance from sin and faith? Shouldn’t the goal of a youth pastor be to preach Christ and Him crucified…to be used of God to proclaim the gospel to dead hearts…and to disciple those who have repented of their sin and already responded in faith?
Sadly, Mark’s goal as stated in the article is almost the complete opposite of the gospel. Those kids, apart from Christ, have no value whatsoever! They are born guilty and sinful, they are at enmity with God, they have no desire to please Him, they are, each day, storing up more wrath for themselves before a God who will not tolerate sin.
I hope and pray that Mark’s true goal as a youth pastor is nothing at all like what he was quoted as saying in the article. I pray that specifically for the eternal benefit of the lost souls under his care if the quote truly represents his goal as a youth pastor, because getting out and doing something and thinking you have value is nothing but pagan ritual and damning deception if Christ is not LORD of your life and you are not His slave.
Grace and peace, brother.
Wes Holder said
Brian, I am sure Mark is speaking as a shepherd of sheep not goats (those that know Jesus as their Savior and Lord). I think it is unfair to comment that “Sadly, Mark’s goal as stated in the article is almost the complete opposite of the gospel” because he may want his students, his professing students to be active in ministry for the purpose of glorifying Jesus Christ. The gospel does say “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” Maybe he was referring to his sheep that know the truth and need to put the truth into practice. Maybe he wants his “christian” students to realize that faith without works is dead.
Who is to say that Henry Magazine didn’t omit many references to Christ in the editing process as is often the case in the secular media?
My contention is this…your assumptions in your post do not match the man. Also, one article doesn’t define a man.
Simply, I believe the goal he mentions in the article may be a goal for christian sheep – sinners saved by grace.
There are plenty of other articles about Mark Hall and his ministry that paint a better picture of the man. I believe you will see that Mark is a christian brother who should be edified and supported by other christian brothers.
side note: You need to add Casting Crowns to your A+ Music list.
Brian Thornton said
Wes,
The gospel is more than just for saving, it is for growing the saved as well! It is ironic you just posted what you did, as I listened to a White Horse Inn broadcast today which talked of this very truth. So many think the gospel, once used for salvation, is no longer really necessary, and so they move on to other more noble aspirations.
The gospel, my brother, is for the discipling of converts as well as for the salvation of the lost.
I agree and pretty much admitted that quite possibly valuable content may have been edited out. I still find it hard to believe that ALL references to Christ would find the cutting room floor if Christ had been the central focus of everything Mark & CC did & talked about. By the way, can you point me to these other articles you mention?
Thanks!
ps. Regarding adding CC to my music list…I loved their first CD, but have not been too thrilled with what has followed from them.
Denny said
As you requested here are some articles online that may paint a more broad picture…..By the way I recommend you pick up the phone and call Mark at the Church if you’re interested. He’ll be happy to talk to you. Your assumptions of his ministry are way off base, but understandable based on the article that was written. Sometimes it’s best to go straight to the source before making assumptions, but I know that’s not always possible….in this case it is. By the way I’ve set here for the last several minutes going to Christian web-sites getting this information while in Riyadh, Saudia Arabia taking the risk, so I would really appreciate you making the call and then posting your thoughts. Like I always tell people if Satan’s not attacking you that means he doesn’t need to waste his time with you because he has you where he wants you. When I read posts like this or on the Washington Post as you’ll see, then I’m led to believe Satan seems a little concerned about what Mark Hall is up too.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/mark_hall/2008/02/are_there_people_out_there.html
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/mark_hall/2008/02/im_confused_by_mr_berlinerblau.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/artists/castingcrowns.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/interviews/2005/castingcrowns-0805.html
http://www.christianmusic.com/castingcrowns/bio.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/197/story_19724_1.html
http://dgerbino.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/mark-hall-casting-crowns-testimony/
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/interview.casting.crowns.mark.hall/10593.htm
Brian Thornton said
Thanks, Denny…
You’ve just equated me with satan.
Brian Thornton said
When I read posts like this…then I’m led to believe Satan seems a little concerned about what Mark Hall is up too.
Satan would never want a discussion to be raised concerning the importance of the true gospel, so please do not equate my thoughts of this article to the work of satan. The last thing he wants is for people to be talking about the importance of the person and work of Christ in the redemption of dead sinners from the wrath of God.
Thanks.
Tim Sexton said
Heres a suggestion, and its only that, for my brothers at ELFBC. Let’s just let this site be what it is, and do what it does. We have work to do guys. To see it suggested of our friend, Mark, that he is afraid to point people to the work of Jesus upset me a little too. All disciples of Jesus, DUCK, rocks are being thrown, and theyre coming from our own troops! At least I thought we were all fighting on the same side. C’mon guys! There are so many rocks being thrown these days, some rightfully so, I admit. I even throw some myself from time to time. But, we know who the false teachers and fluff “preachers” are. We also know that Mark (I’m actually laughing as I type this) isnt one of them. Here’s a quote for ya: “But I am guessing this guys theology is whack?” Mike Leake said that? Really? I dont know Mike Leake, but I know something about Mike Leake. Mike Leake doesnt know Mark Hall!!! Actually, Mark’s theology is Biblically sound, as much as anyone I know. He’s also extraordinarily humble (a trait that is a part of the life of a Godly man), and would be the first to say that he doesnt have it all figured out. But, he’s pouring his life into ministry, and I see the authentic life of Jesus in this guy as much as anyone I know. He’s teaching kids that Jesus is life itself, and that there is no other way to be made right with God. He’s teaching them that God is alive, and not just a book that gathers dust. He’s shouting in so many ways for these kids to run the race, to seek God with everything they are. But, actually, this isnt really about defending Mark Hall, he’s out there on the front lines and he’s taking bigger bulletts than the ones being fired here, daily. They mostly come from those who deny the existence of God, or the redeeming work of Jesus. I just wonder why, with all the true “whacko’s” out there, you had to fire a shot at Mark Hall. Brian, buddy, you’re shooting at the guys on your own team. I love you Brian. Your passion for truth is there, I know that. But, why all the shots at ELFBC? We’re all working out our salvation, man! If we all wait til we’re perfect before we jump out there and minister, we’ll never be used by God. And, I say that having never heard any false, or mis-leadning statements about who God is from Mark. This “I’m smarter, and way more spiritual than you guys” mentality is damaging to the body of Christ. And, I dont care what sort of intellectual reasoning you come up with to justify this. Where is the heart of Jesus in this? He IS TRUTH. And He had to die because we are desperately lost without Him. All of us! It was HIS plan, not ours. He knows we all will fumble through understanding fully who He is, for a lifetime we will. You left our church Brian because you didnt agree. Got it! We use methods that you dont like. Got that too! You want to fire shots at someone? Fire them at me. I’m on staff here now. Mark? That boy is disappearing at a way more rapid pace than I am. There are ways that God is using His surrendered life that I dont even have time to go into. Again, this isnt about Mark. This is about the body of Christ. Are there folks out there who need to be called out for false teaching and misleading the flock? Absolutley! Is everyone who doesnt pass the test of you guys in that group? I think we’ll find the answer to that question when all is said and done! Run the race Brian, dont spend all your time nipping at the heels of the guys running next to you! And, if you hate what ELFBC stands for, then you hate a whole bunch of folks who will love you back regardless of this agenda of yours. And, no, I didnt suggest that you hate the people here, it just feels like it. I’ve never felt it personally from you, but these are my brothers in arms here. To lump us in with false teachers and fluff preachers? I never thought I’d see the day. By the way, Denny was right. You need to call Mark Hall and quote him first hand. It beats the stew out of throwing rocks at your brother because of an article in a secular magazine. Love ya…Tim
Brian Thornton said
Hi Tim! It’s good to hear from you…I think.
A few thoughts:
1. I don’t think I have ever had so many things attributed to me that I did not say all in one comment. No where have I ever said anything like “I’m smarter and way more spiritual than you guys”.
2. I have yet to see any of those getting all upset with me and defending Mark actually engaging what has been said concerning the quotes from the article.
3. Congrats on the new job. I had not heard that you were now on staff.
4. If Mark would like to correct the article (and me – I have already admitted that the article could have omitted things), I will give him the floor right here and he is more than welcome to set the record straight as to what was printed in the magazine.
If he would like, he can answer just these few questions, and I will give him the last word:
Mark, what is your goal as a youth pastor, and how much of your answer here was said to the interviewer but which did not make it into the article?
What is the gospel?
What programs/tools are being used by the kids which reveal to them what their spiritual gifts are? Are all the youth going through a spiritual gift finding process, or just the ones who are saved?
Clayton McClure said
I really feel sorry for you Brian! I wonder what has made you so bitter and angry towards ELFBC. I wonder if you even really know Mark Hall. It seems to me you are doing more damage than good. Some one should call you out on your constant cutting and dividing that you do here on this website. I pity you!! You are making comments on things that you don’t even know about. My prayers are with you my brother. Hope that all is going well with you.
Brian Thornton said
Congrats, Clayton (or is it William? That’s the name you posted under the last time you tried to rebuke me on this site), for keeping the streak alive.
So far, NOT ONE of those who are trying to defend Mark Hall has actually engaged what has been said by him (or the kids who are quoted) in the article in question.
Have you guys even read it? Yes, the staff of ELFBC (most of whom may comment here before this is over if the current trend keeps up!) knows Mark Hall and Casting Crowns personally. But, what about the typical local resident who receives the magazine with the front cover shot and 8-page feature spread on Hall and the band and the church? What impression are they going to get from what has been written in there? What will they know of the person and work of Christ from this exposé? That is the point of this post.
Can you guys look past your own little universe just a little bit and consider what the world sees about all things Hall and ELFBC from the article in question?
Please, if you are going to comment, stop focusing on me and address what is in the article. If you don’t have a copy of it, email me and I will be happy to forward it to you.
Clayton McClure said
I have the article and I have read it. Is there not the possibility that information was left out. Last time I checked its is called journalism!! They print whatever they want the public to know. Can quotes be misconstrued? YES!!!
If someone came to this website and read your material they may have different view of who you are. I know you and you are a nice guy, a little mislead, but you are a seeker of truth and I respect that. In the same way this article is not a full view of who Mark is. I believe Denny gave you plenty of options for you to read. Prayers are with you!!
Clayton WILLIAM McClure
Brian Thornton said
Clayton,
I have already (more than once) admitted that things could have been left out of the article, but the fact remains that nothing in this feature spread points people to Christ. If Mark believes he was misrepresented in the piece, then by all means he needs to make the truth known. And I have even offered to let him make his corrections right here on this site, with no rebuttals.
You also seem to be implying that what people see of me on this site is not who I really am. This is me, brother. And yes, I am still a nice guy!
Look, let’s be honest here. I know I have touched the sacred cow at ELFBC, Casting Crowns, and you guys are circling your wagons to protect your fellow staff member. That is noble, to be sure, but unnecessary as I have not attacked him, only what he was quoted as saying. You guys are defending him instead of addressing what he said in the article and, quite frankly, you and Sexton are demonstrating quite a bit of vitriol in the process, not to mention flat out misrepresentations of what I have said here. Tim Sexton, your personal remarks toward me were completely off-base and have nothing to do with what is being discussed here.
If I was you (this is a general ‘you’), I would be more concerned with the fact that many more than just myself have been misled by this article, and how it portrays (or doesn’t portray) the centrality of Christ in everything being done by Mark, Casting Crowns, and the church in general.
And, guess what…this post and the responses are accomplishing exactly what my goal is for this whole blog site…to get people thinking about what truth is and what the gospel really is and is not. Perhaps this little entry on this blog may cause Mark or others to be a little more careful and thorough the next time they give an interview, who knows. Perhaps it may be a catalyst to start a conversation about the person and work of Jesus Christ. If any of these things happen as a result of this piece, then it has served its purpose.
RETRACTION: I would also like to revise an earlier remark about no one engaging the content of the article in question. Both Wes and Denny did address the content of the article, and admitted it was very lite with respect to the gospel, though I would say the gospel was nonexistent.
FINALLY: For those who may be coming here for the first time as a result of this post, welcome. Feel free to take a look around and let me know what you think.
dvdf said
to those defending Mark, I was a part of that group for about three years and went to refuge almost every Wed. and have even defended some of the things that were said during those gatherings.
I also will tell you that I love you guys with out question and I do appreciate the love you guys showed to me and my kids.
That is until I had some questions about “things”… theology, church structure, etc., then almost no one wanted to talk. Granted I understand that when you are asked about the way your bosses are running the business that you love it is hard to be very open about what is going on.
Now back to the point- I love you Mark and consider you a brother in Christ and I thank you for loving on me and my kids but one of the things I wanted to ask is.. why in three years I NEVER heard you say to the kids “if you do not know Christ you are dead in your sins and need to repent and believe…” or any variation of this.
Clayton, Tim, Wes, – Brian is NOT a “Lone Ranger” with a personal vendetta, he is a genuinely concerned brother in Christ and it IS a loving thing to try to generate some thought provoking discussion, there is no need for pity for it comes from a heart of love for us- his brothers.
Just as I would have some intense questions for John McArthur, John Piper, R.C. Sproul and other wonderful leaders
and defenders of the truth that does not mean I need pity or deserve contempt from the members of there local congregations. I hope the discussion, without the bitterness from either side, continues for it is a discussion between brothers and would be beneficial for us all.
Soli Deo Gloria
David
Tim Sexton said
Brian, didnt mean to say anything negative personally about you. I think you’re an extremely bright guy. So, I apologize if I did that, and I mean it. But you fire bullets at my friend and brother in Christ, and then calmly act as if all you want is more information? The implication is that Mark doesnt clearly understand or articulate the Gospel to the kids here? I don’t even know what to say to that! Anyway, the “smarter and more spiritual” comment directed at you guys was followed by the word “mentality”. I didnt say you ever said that you were smarter and more spiritual. That’s just the spirit of everything I see in this assesment of Mark’s ministry. This is sin bro. Plain and simple. And, this “David” guy who didnt post his last name? I don’t know who he is of course, but its apparent that no ministry can keep everyone happy and engaged. We’ve had so many people come through here with their own idea’s and issues. Everybody has a “better way” to do things. But, it’s funny, most of them aren’t really doing anything at all. We try to love on them and minister to them, and we love them when they leave.”David” said that its a loving thing to “try to generate thought provoking discussion.” That’s what this is? To imply that a minister failed in his duties in an interview, and then to completely dismiss the entire body of work that God has done through this man? To say that he never shares the true Gospel to the kids in our youth group? Please!!! Are we in the twilight zone here? Doctrine and theology is of extreme importance. It’s the foundation of ministry, period. But, people, and I’d say ministries, should be judged by their fruit AND their doctrine. Anybody ever read Marks book? So, it cracks me up how you guys pick at people and insist they defend themselves to you. And listen, I ain’t perfect, but I know a nut-job false teacher, or someone sugar coating the gospel when I see one, and to hang this label on Mark is just irresponsible and divisive, and your “implied” meaning is clear for everyone to see. Church’s are full of imperfect people Brian (and “David”), as are websites. Keep throwing rocks, we’re just gonna buy helmets and march on! Just remember man, it’s not JUST about the altar, it’s also about the door. By the way, I’m on staff here, and my wife is Mark and Reagan’s (the other youth pastor who IS here full time) assistant, and none of us have ever heard of “shape”? The Rick Warren/Purpose Driven thing you “know for a fact” we use here? I talked to a few more staff folks, and nope! No “shape!” We DO actually use “place”, but thats something entirely different. And contrary to how this post may make you feel. I do love ya! I hope you and your family are doing well. I’ll yell at you if I ever need some help with one of the many b’day party’s in our future. You guys want to have honest, Godly discussion? Discussion that does not throw fruitful ministries under the bus? You know where we are. By the way, don’t expect Mark himself to reply to any of this. I’d never burden him with something so rediculous and so blatantly anti-Casting Crowns/Mark Hall, and untrue as well. Like I said, Marks phone number at the church is NOT hard to find. Take care. I’m out!!!
Brian Thornton said
More to say shortly, but for now…
My bad on saying ELFBC uses SHAPE. I meant to say PLACE. I don’t know who told you they were totally different, Tim, but they are virtually identical.
SHAPE
Spiritual gifts
Heart
Abilities
Personality
Experiences
PLACE
Personality Discovery
Learning Spiritual Gifts
Abilities Awareness
Connecting Passion with Ministry (Heart)
Experiences of Life
Pam Thornton said
Okay!!! I’ve read enough. Bullets? Are you kidding me? An exact quote was posted and a question was asked. Good Grief!! You guys are way too defensive. Admit the “article” didn’t do Mark justice and move on. Mark has a great gift and platform to share what I hope we are all about…The work and person of JESUS CHRIST. He was given the opportunity in a local secular magazine to say what his goal was as a youth pastor and unfortunately that didn’t make it in. Brian and I found that strange, plain and simple. Hey! It was great to hear from some of you….Maybe some of you can come back and give Brian a hard time about some of the other stuff he blogs about. Grace and Peace!
Denny said
Brian,
Just wanted to clarify that I was not equating you with Satan. I don’t know you personally as some on here do, but my point was that when we stumble and cause our brother to fall we are sinning and can be considered being used by Satan to accomplish his goals by how we affect other people with what we say and do. By potentially giving a biased and limited implication of Mark’s ministry I construed it to be such a thing. I unfortunately have done more harm than good in my almost 20 years of being saved by Christ and I’m sure most of us will admit to being out of God’s will from time to time. Anyway hope that clarifies I was in no way accusing you of equality with Satan. Sorry if you took it that way. I was hoping by providing additional data as requested that a larger scope of Mark’s ministry could be evaluated and the way the blog was worded was skewed in my opinion.
Hope you see it for what it was and not me throwing a “stone” at you or your beliefs. You have full right to post your beliefs on your site and I respect that. I am not going to argue the points of Hyper-Calvanism with you as that won’t benefit the cause of Christ on here.
Again I apologize if I offended you.
Denny
Brian Thornton said
Denny,
Thanks for posting again. And you didn’t offend me. I just wanted to make a distinction concerning my post, the goal of which is not to make someone stumble, but to make the focus on the gospel.
By the way, if you want to argue against hyper-Calvinism here, you are more than welcome, and I will be right there beside you standing against it as well!
Brian Thornton said
Doctrine and theology is of extreme importance. It’s the foundation of ministry, period.
Unfortunately, Tim, no one ever sees the foundation of anything. When is the last time you saw the foundation of your home? As MacArthur said last week at the Shepdherd’s Conference, too many pastors and churches ASSUME the gospel. They say it is their foundation that everything else is built upon, but no one ever actually sees it! Get it out from the foundation and get it into the kitchen and the living room! Don’t assume the gospel…make it the central thing. The gospel is for much more than evangelism…it is also what grows the sheep in the grace and knowledge of Christ.
I know a nut-job false teacher, or someone sugar coating the gospel when I see one, and to hang this label on Mark is just irresponsible and divisive,
Tim! What blog are you reading? Please cite when and where this has been said. I know you, brother, and I know you know better than to be so inflammatory with attacking things that just simply have not been said.
You want to protect and defend Mark, I understand that. But please, do it by addressing what has been said. It will have more meaning to what is really being discussed.
Finally, you may think this piece is anti-Mark Hall and anti-Casting Crowns and, sadly, that is an unfortunate focus you and others are making. You are so focused on circling the wagons that you’ve missed the whole point of this post…the importance of the centrality of the gospel in ministry.
By the way, what is your new job on staff at ELFBC?
Brian Thornton said
Tim,
Sorry, but I just can’t let this one go either. Concerning the person who posted regarding his personal witness to a lack of the gospel being presented to the youth, you said:
Sadly, this comment by you once again addresses NOTHING of what was actually said (by an eyewitness of the youth group week after week), but instead attacks the person making the statement.
For your information, the person who submitted that comment – who you so nonchalantly discounted as being someone who probably wasn’t “really doing anything at all” – was involved in multiple ministries at the church. Besides, what does that have to do with the topic of whether or not the true gospel was being presented anyway?
You know I love discussion, Tim, as we used to have some great ones during teacher meetings. But please, if you decide to post here again, I would ask that you do your best to stick to what is being said and addressed, and not resort to ignoring the issue before you, but rather attacking the person raising the issue.
Thanks, brother! And I’m still interested in your new staff position there. What have they got you doin’?
Clayton McClure said
I think you need to let this go Brian. I appreciate your love of truth but there is time to let it go. I guess we all need to stop arguing for arguements sake. We agree to disagree. Case Closed!!!!!
Clayton WILLIAM McClure
Brian Thornton said
“I think you need to let this go Brian.”
Let what go? Fighting for the need of the gospel in our churches, or my “love of truth”, as you put it? By the grace of God, I will never let these go, Clayton.
“I guess we all need to stop arguing for arguements sake. We agree to disagree. Case Closed!!!!!”
Case NOT closed! You may agree to disagree, but I will NOT agree to disagree when the gospel and the centrality of the person and work of Christ in ministry is at stake. Unity for the sake of unity, apart from the true gospel, is no unity at all. And I will not be a party to a false ecumenical mentality if it compromises Christ.
Look back through this post and the resulting comments, and see what my focus has been compared to what your (and others) focus has been. I was trying to get us talking about the gospel, but all you wanted to do was talk about and defend a man, while smearing others in the process. Now, you may come back and accuse me of smearing Mark/Casting Crowns/ELFBC, but here’s one main difference…I was quoting Mark, whereas others were making assumptions and just plain making stuff up about me and others.
The assumption of the gospel is killing many a church, and I pray with all my heart that it would stop being assumed, and start being proclaimed (to the church), for it is the only thing that is “the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes”. Did you catch that? Not only to everyone who WILL believe, but also to everyone who is already believing.
The word ‘believe’ in that verse I just quoted (Romans 1:16) is not in the future tense, but is a present participle, and expresses a continuous or repeated action. The gospel, my friend, is not only for evangelism, but is for the saved as well! We must not assume the church knows and understands the gospel, but we must always make it the central theme of our preaching, teaching, and discipleship.
As I have heard it said:
– The first generation proclaims the gospel
– The second generation assumes the gospel
– The third generation denies the gospel
May the generation after us be saturated with Christ, with the centrality of the gospel. In the end, it won’t matter whether or not they think they have value or have been out doing stuff, but whether or not they have been known by the Savior, and have known Him. Their understanding of their worth/value before God, and what they do (works), will only be of any value if they are doing it from a heart that has been quickened by the Holy Spirit, and which now has a mind of action, not out of compulsion (”get out there and do something!”), but rather out of gratitude for what Christ has done for them. And that, my friends, comes only from the preaching and teaching of man’s sin and depravity, and the absolute necessity of repentance from that sin and faith alone in the person and work of Christ in behalf of sinners to appease the wrath of God in their stead.
That’s what matters, and I will never, no never, let that go.
Grace and peace to you and yours, and may God be honored in all we do and say as we stand for truth.
dvdf said
I pray that when (not if, for I am but a fallen man and as such am prone to err and build idols even though I am redeemed) I am in error on anything as it pertains to the understanding of the Holy Scriptures that there is a loving brother willing to come beside me and hold me accountable for not handling the Word properly. I welcome the correction of those, not smarter or more pious, but willing to take whatever prideful retort that I may provide, look beyond it and call me to account, as Paul did on more than one occasion. The only way this can be done is by the willingness of me to, at the very least,…. talk.
Soli Deo Gloria
David
Joshua M said
I personally think that what Mark Hall meant was to get these students using the spiritual gifts that God has blessed with and simply not JUST sitting in church on Wednesdays and Sundays and not sharing what they have been learning. Mark doesn’t want them to “get out of Refuge (on Wed.) and church on Sundays. But what he does not want them to do is to just attend church and tell others about what they are learning…..thus explaining his comment on getting them out of their seats at church.
Mr. Thornton, I really don’t understand why you would say these things about this man who is clearly living for Jesus Christ!? I just don’t understand how someone could say his theology is “wack” on sentence taken from an article of a secular article where things can clipped and snipped to say whatever they want to say. It seems (even though you may not say you are not) that you are attacking Mark Hall. Why do you seem so bitter? If you do not know this man than why would you criticize him like this? You guys are on the same side! Come on man, you both want the same thing: to glorify
God,to expand his kingdom, and teaching and discipling others!
Brian Thornton said
Joshua,
You obviously know Mark personally (if you are who I think you are), and because of that, you know things which were not contained in the article.
The whole point of my post was to address – not Mark personally, which I did not do – but to address what Mark said in the article. Most reading the article do not have the privilege of knowing Mark personally or of going to the same church he attends, and my critique of what he said in the article was based upon that very fact…most will only know of Mark is what he was quoted as saying in this article…which was void of the gospel.
Finally, you can rest assured that there is no bitterness here…only sadness in what I see as a widespread assumption of the gospel in American evangelicalism today, when what we need is for the gospel to be front and center of everything we say and do.
Thanks.