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The Baptism Debate – What About John the Baptist

Posted by Brian Thornton on June 6, 2008

I came across an article on the Founders.org web site today from 2002 (yes, I am obviously behind the times in this discussion) which focused on a topic concerning the baptism debate between Paedos and Credos that I had never really pondered until now. The issue being examined in the article was that of John the Baptist, and who he was baptizing as he paved the way for the Messiah. I am going to eventually post this article bit by bit until I have reposted it in its entirety, but for now I want to give you some of the high points for you to ponder as I have today. This may very well be one of the most difficult issues that Paedos face in their defense of baptizing infants…that is, if they choose to honestly examine the biblical record of who John was baptizing, and the significance that it holds for who we are to baptize today. Here are some excerpts from the article.

John calls out a remnant people for the Lord.

John called upon Israel to repent in view of the soon coming judgment of God when his wrath would be poured out upon a disobedient nation. He calls for a radical turning to God, a returning to God from their rebellion back to true covenant obedience. This is the burden of his preaching: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near” (Matthew 3:2). And his call is urgent, for “the axe is already at the root of the trees” (v. 10).

To those who responded to his message John administered baptism in the Jordan River. Those who were baptized confessed their sins (Matthew 3:6) and were committed by their baptism to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (v. 8).

John’s baptism was a radical innovation. It was administered to Jews, not proselytes from among the Gentiles. It was a once only rite, so it is marked off from the repeated lustrations of contemporary Judaism in general and from those practiced in the Qumran community in particular. And, it was administered to persons already circumcised.

John’s baptism, then, was baptism for a remnant–the baptism of a people from within the nation of Israel, who were preparing the way for the Lord (Mark 1:2-3). And the baptism that Jesus permitted his disciples to administer (John 4:2) seems to have had much the same significance (John 3:22-26).

John did not baptize infants.

The evidence is very clear that John did not baptize infants. His baptism is administered to those who confess their sins. By its very nature as the identifying sign of a people turned again to God–a remnant people–it requires repentance. It is “a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins” (Mark 1:4). Both Matthew and Mark emphasize the element of confession: “confessing their sins, they [the baptizands] were baptized by him [John the Baptist] in the Jordan River” (Matthew 3:6; Mark 1:5). Nothing in the text suggests that they confessed the sins of their infants or that their infants were baptized with them. William Hendriksen, a paedobaptist comments, “Without confession of sins no baptism! For those who truthfully repented of their evil state and wicked conduct baptism…was a visible sign and seal of invisible grace (cf. Romans 4;11), the grace of forgiveness and adoption into God’s family.” This is a statement to which all Baptists could give hearty assent.

Those who are capable of confessing their sins are clearly not infants who cannot yet talk, as Francis Turretin clearly recognizes. He writes: “John admitted none to baptism but those who confessed their sins; because his business was to baptize adults.”

An important implication follows from this. If John the Baptist only baptized those who were capable of confessing their sins, and if the disciples of our Lord followed the same practice with His approval, why should it be so difficult to believe that the apostolic Christ did not practice infant baptism?

Paedobaptists need to do justice to the place of John the Baptist in redemptive history.

To go on maintaining that it is possible to make a simple move from the circumcision of infant males to the baptism of infants is to ignore the significance of the ministry of the Baptist. However, as I have attempted to show, responsible biblical/theological exegesis will not allow us to do so. Given the way in which the Gospel writers see John as the pivotal figure in the transition from the old dispensation to the new, eschatological dispensation, and given the clear endorsement of his ministry by our Lord, it is no longer helpful for paedobaptists to argue for infant baptism as if John the Baptist never existed. He did, and so proper weight needs to be given to his role in redemptive history.

It seems to me that there can be no escape for paedobaptists from the dilemma posed by John’s baptism. Either John baptized infants (which they admit that he did not) or he did not upon the covenant principle of “thee and thy seed.” If he did not uphold this principle, most likely because it was set aside by the repentance baptism that he was authorized “from heaven” to administer, then why should it be insisted that our Lord and his apostles continued to uphold it?

To insist that the principle of “thee and thy seed” is meant to continue in force beyond the ministry of John the Baptist is to assume that the clock of redemptive history be turned back and the principle be re-established, having for a time been set aside. But this would be without precedent in Scripture. The movement of redemptive history is progressive and cumulative, not retrogressive. The repentance baptism of John leads on to the repentance-baptism of the first disciples of Jesus and his apostles, not away from it.

25 Responses to “The Baptism Debate – What About John the Baptist”

  1. Les Prouty said

    “It seems to me that there can be no escape for paedobaptists from the dilemma posed by John’s baptism. Either John baptized infants (which they admit that he did not) or he did not upon the covenant principle of “thee and thy seed.” If he did not uphold this principle, most likely because it was set aside by the repentance baptism that he was authorized “from heaven” to administer, then why should it be insisted that our Lord and his apostles continued to uphold it?

    Brian, is it your contention that a) since JTB did not baptize infants that b) we should not baptize infants? I want to make sure I understand the essence or main point you are trying to make before I respond.

  2. Les Prouty said

    Oh, I forgot to ask the other clarification question: Are you positing that John’s baptizing is a model for our baptizing for us today?

  3. danny said

    Brian, a couple of questions/comments about this post:

    1) What role and example of repentance recorded in Joel 2:12-18 play in John’s baptism, since your contention is that only adults were baptized?

    If your premise is that John’s baptizing is a model for New Covenant baptism:

    1) How could that be since his baptizing still fell under the Old Covenant?
    2) What about the John 3:25 where Jews were arguing about John’s baptism in the context of a purification rite?
    3) How do you interpret Acts 19:1-6, where people are re-baptized into Christ even though they had already been baptized by John.

    Just a couple of thoughts.

    Regards,
    Danny

  4. Stan said

    Interesting post.

    I’ve always thought Acts 2:38-39 presented a substantial problem for the Paedobaptists.

    And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

    Paedobaptists like to focus on “for you and for your children” and are quite silent on “for all who are far off” and “everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

    I think there could be a relationship between Acts 2:39 and Acts 1:8, “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    There seems to be a bit of similarity between “your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself” and “Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

  5. danny said

    Looking at the content of Kingdon’s point “John calls out a remnant people for the Lord”, I don’t see how Joel 2:12-18 is irrelevant. In Joel you see the following:

    1) A call to return w/ weeping, fasting and mourning
    2) A call to repent (rend your heart)

    Obviously, infants cannot repent or fast, and yet, they gather their children and infants in the process of repentance.

    The call in Joel was a call to a remnant (return, repent, mourn, etc.)

  6. danny said

    Hey Stan, thanks for joining the discussion. To be honest, I would have to say that Acts 2:38-39 represents a substantial problem for the Credo-baptists.

    I wouldn’t say I am silent on “for all who are far off”, here’s why:

    “for you and your children and for all who are far off” is a direct echo of the covenant promise that God made with Abraham in Gen. 17. That gives strength to the paedo side because it is a re-affirmation of the Abrahamic covenant.

    “as many as the Lord will call”

    Many credo’s take this to mean that the idea of covenant children has changed because it is now based on election instead of ethnicity. While OT Jews could claim the covenant sign upon their children because they were Jews, they can no longer claim baptism on them because it is based on election.

    However, a good question to ask is this: what was God’s original intention with applying circumcision to one’s seed and what had the interpretation of the sign become by the time the 1st century rolled around? This is where I think credo’s err when they interpret circumcision in light of what the practice had become instead of what God’s design for it was.

    God has always had a chosen people destined for salvation through Christ. Throughout the course of the debate, Brian has equated “promises” with “election” and that is where he is getting hung up. Promises of God does not mean election, and Abraham lived out God’s promises (”to you and your descendants”), not God’s secret decretive will (”Jacob I loved, Esau I hated”).

    Here is proof of Brian’s confusion between promises and election. In an earlier post (I think a week or so ago), he mentioned that if God’s promises are not fulfilled then God is a liar. However, if you look at Rom. 3:1-2, you will see that God is not a liar when His promises are not ratified through faith, man is.

    And this is what everything boils down to. Our contention is that the sign of circumcision in the OT and the sign of baptism in the NT are outward signs that point to God’s promise via the covenant. Circumcision pointed to regeneration and baptism points to regeneration (Mark 1:8, John 3, Titus 3:5, etc.), therefore, showing a continuity between the signs. Baptism is not something new by the time the NT rolls around. Just to name a few OT baptisms, look at the baptism of Noah where his family was included in the baptism not because of their faith but of Noah’s (Gen. 7:1, Heb. 11:7, 1 Pet. 3:19-21, 2 Pet. 2:5) and the baptism of Moses included families and children (1 Cor. 10:1-2).

    Throughout redemptive history, God has inacted every covenant by means of the household principle and it is our contention that if there is a radical change in the outward administration of God’s covenant dealings and covenant character, we should see explicit proof of a radical change that would completely turn the entire covenant concept upside-down. If one does justice to all of scripture, one will see that this radical change will not be found.

    Blessings,
    Danny

  7. Danny,

    Why were the Christian Jews still circumcising their children if baptism replaced that practice? When this very issue (circumcision) came up and was presented to the Jerusalem council, why did they not address it and declare that circumcision had been replaced by baptism?

  8. Les Prouty said

    Well said Danny.

    Brian: What texts are you talking about? And, are you planning to clarify for me per my two earlier comments?

  9. Les, what are you referring to with respect to texts? I’m not following you…but then, as has been stated time and again, I am apparently confused, don’t understand, and don’t have enough education (a previous accusation from another Paedo), so who can blame me for not knowing what you are talking about.

    Regarding your requests for clarification, my contention is simply that the Baptist, in preparing the way for Christ, was baptizing based upon repentance, and not based upon who was in the covenant community.

    BTW, do you want to take a stab at explaining why Christian Jews were still circumcising their children in the NT, seeing as baptism supposedly had replaced that practice?

  10. Les Prouty said

    Those are the texts I am asking about. Where are you referring to about the Christian Jews circumcising their children in the NT. In other words, what texts are you asking me to take a stab at?

  11. Les Prouty said

    Here is my answer on repentance. We paedos have never denied that repentance is not connected to baptism.
    WCF:
    I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.

    Repentance is clearly in the above statement which I subscribe to.

  12. Les Prouty said

    I should have said, “We paedos have never denied that repentance is connected to baptism.”

  13. Repentance may be in the statement you subscribe to, but The Baptist baptized no one who did not first express repentance.

    regarding the issue of Jewish believers continuing to circumcise, here is an excerpt from the article in the post:

    If the two rites–circumcision and baptism–differ so markedly from one another, and in where they are placed in the unfolding of God’s redemptive plan, it is not surprising that John and man should not have seen baptism as replacing circumcision. Nor is it surprising that in the early church Jewish believers practiced circumcision and administered baptism. There is not a hint in the New Testament that Jewish believers ceased to have their male children circumcised. Indeed, the evidence is that even Paul, who so strongly resisted any attempt to impose circumcision upon Gentile believers, agreed that it should continue among his fellow Jewish believers. Acts 21:21 mentions that a false report about Paul had been spread among the “many thousands” of Jews who had believed (v. 20). This was that he was teaching “all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to run away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.” At the suggestion of James and the elders of the Jerusalem church, Paul publicly demonstrated the falsity of the report by joining in the purification rites of four men who had mad a vow. He also paid their expenses. The intended result is made plain: “Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law” (v. 24b).

    In continuing to have their male children circumcised, believing Jewish parents clearly took their cue from John the Baptist who did not see his baptism as replacing circumcision. Now, if this is the case, why should we expect that the two rites of circumcision and baptism were administered to male infants? Circumcision certainly, but not baptism.

  14. Why would Paul put the double-whammy on Timothy if baptism had replaced circumcision?

    Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. – Acts 16:3

    One of your own, Doug Wilson, even acknowledges, “the transition from the older administration to the new took almost half a century.” Why? With the apostles right there to correct such an errant practice as believing Jews continuing to circumcise infant males after baptism had been instituted, why wouldn’t they have corrected this error?

    IF they were baptizing infants, then why in the world would they also be circumcising them too? This makes no sense at all.

  15. Les Prouty said

    I have to run out for a few hours, but I must say I am incredulous that you are trying to make your case on this writer’s interpretation of the Acts passage and that now you are invoking Paul’s circumcision of Timothy to your case. Me thinks you have brought on to yourself far more than you might have desired if we are to comply with these examples from scripture in the manner you are suggesting.

    Be back.

  16. danny said

    Brian, your question concerning the Jersualem council in Acts 15 is a charge brought by many credo’s against us. I would like to offer a simple explanation.

    The council met because there were those insisting that circumcision was necessary for salvation (A misunderstanding of God’s original design and intention).

    If the Apostles would have said, “No, no, no, baptism is the new circumcision, enough with this circumcision business!” and left it at that, this would have only meant that baptism is now required to be saved instead of circumcision:

    P1: Circumcision is necessary for salvation
    P2: Baptism is the new circumcision
    C1: Baptism is necessary for salvation

    So that is why they wouldn’t have said baptism replaces circumcision at the council. They were there to show that salvation is by grace through faith and not by the law. Otherwise, the sign of baptism would be misunderstood by the Jews just as the sign of circumcision had become.

    As far as Christian Jews circumcising their children, can you give me a passage to interact with? Thanks!

  17. danny said

    Also, Brian, I think we can agree that history and tradition are not bad things (because we all have tradition, just as you have an entire section of your blog devoted to your Baptist Heritage) to consider.

    You mentioned a quote about Doug Wilson talking about the transition from circumcision to baptism taking roughly 50 years. Would the practice, in order to satisfy your contention, had to have been transitioned out in one day?

    I know neither of us having appealed to history in this debate yet until now. I think history is something worth looking at, although it is not our final authority. Here’s a couple of thoughts from history:

    1) The early church fathers considered baptism the new circumcision (for example, Justin Martyr who taught people about baptism by teaching them about circumcision).
    2) The earliest records we have of the post-apostolic church fathers indicate an almost universal tradition of infant baptism which must have been quite early. The Apostle John lived the longest and discipled and mentored some early church fathers such as Ignatius and Polycarp. Surely, he would have set them straight being that he was an apostle. If the apostles supposedly taught credo-baptism alone, why was there never a word mentioned throughout the wide-spread and universal practice of it for hundreds of years?

    History is not our final presupposition, but it’s worth mentioning.

  18. danny said

    One thought about Polycarp:

    In the “Martyrdom Polycarp” it indicates his age on the day of his death: “Eighty and six years I have served him”, which if it is understood to mean that he was 86 years old, would indicate that his family had accepted Christianity while he was an infant.

  19. Les,

    You can be skeptical all you want, but the truth remains (and these are fact) that the biblical record shows the following:

    1. John the Baptist baptized only those who first repented
    2. Jewish believers in the first century continued to circumcise their males at the same time they were also (according to you) baptizing them.

    I am not “making my case” solely on one thing. These points I have raised are yet just more bricks in the wall added to all the other ones that have been raised to this point that do not support the baptizing of anyone who has not first expressed repentance.

    I know these posts and my additional comments will not change anyone’s mind on the Paedo side. What I hope, though, is that they will show other people what the Paedo argument looks like when it has been examined, and we kick the tires, look under the hood, and peek behind the curtain. You can’t just keep discounting point after point after point about there being nothing in the biblical record beyond your typical good and necessary inferences…well, I guess you can.

    And therein lies the purpose of these posts, so that people will see what the arguments look like when you begin to peel back the layers and really look at what Scripture shows about it.

    And Danny,

    YES…I would expect the practice of circumcision to stop immediately (or at least be pointed out as error immediately), especially since the apostles were right there, and, in my opinion, would have corrected those Jews who were still circumcising when baptism had replaced it.

  20. danny said

    I haven’t seen any rebuttal to any of the other points above, especially from Joel 2.

  21. Joel 2 is a call by God for the people to return to the Lord via repentance – fasting, weeping and mourning…visible signs of repentance.

    I think what you are trying to do is connect the instruction in Joel 2 to “gather the children, even nursing infants” to the repentance that John the Baptist called for, and you are trying to somehow connect the two and say that, when the people who responded to the Baptist came in repentance to be baptized by John, that they brought their children as well and they were baptized also.

    The problem with that, if I am in the ballpark with what you are suggesting, is that the biblical record only shows that those who were confessing their sins were baptized. John’s baptism was one of repentance, NOT one for “thee and thy seed”.

    In other words, UNLIKE the previous covenant which was a collective, ethnic, group covenant, John’s baptism (like the New Covenant) was one of INDIVIDUAL repentance, and not collective or ethnic or according-to-the-flesh.

  22. Les Prouty said

    Brian, let me say that I agree that repentance is necessary prior to baptism (conversion=faith and repentance). i.e. where there are professions of faith, baptism should follow. We have no disagreement there.

    Obviously the crux of our difference is who else is entitled to baptism. We say the children of those professing Christ. We have been over that ground many times. We acknowledge that we do not have a command to baptize children in the NT. We acknowledge that we do not have an explicit example of an infant being baptized in the NT. Clear on all that?

    Obviously, again, we see the continuity of God’s promise to Abraham from OT to NT. They put the sign of the covenant on their children. We see no compelling reason to stop doing what God commanded. You will disagree with our presumption on the household baptisms. Granted. You are presuming as well since the scripture is silent. We believe that ouit presumption that children were present and were baptized carries more weight because of the continuity argument we make. Certainly the text of several household baptisms favors our assumption that one person believed and more than one person was baptized.

    Now, JTB. Credos have better texts to argue from than John’s baptisms. His was not Christian baptism as every commentator of any worth will agree. Granted repentance was required. We agree that when one embraces Christ by profession he should be baptized, if he has never been baptized. Period. Agreement.

    But John’s baptisms are not normative anyway so his adds nothing to your argument.

    BTW, we acknowledge that we cannot point to even one explicit example of an infant being baptized in the NT.

    Can you admit that YOU cannot point to even one example of a child raised in a Christian home being baptized upon profession of faith, something you Credos practice?

    The Acts passage and the example of Timothy bring nothing to the debate either, unless you are prepared to start mandating circumcism.

    So, in the end, our “brick wall” has been assailed since the NT and has stood the test of time both biblically and historically. So keep on firing at us if it it pleases, we can handle it just fine.:)

  23. danny said

    “In other words, UNLIKE the previous covenant which was a collective, ethnic, group covenant, John’s baptism (like the New Covenant) was one of INDIVIDUAL repentance, and not collective or ethnic or according-to-the-flesh.”

    This is the fatal flaw of your baptistic model which I think shows its dispensational under-belly.

  24. Les Prouty said

    Danny, you are correct. The credo failure to understand the nature of the covenant and continue to characterize it the way they do is what has and continues to lead them off course.

    Since we have finally OK’d some appeal to outside sources (see above from Brian), I will quote Richard Pratt for maybe some light on the covenant:

    On the one side, God made promises in the covenant with Abraham that will certainly be fulfilled. God swore to fulfill them and he cannot fail to bring them about without violating his oath. What were these promises? In Genesis 15:16 and 18 God promised that Abraham’s descendants would come out of slavery and possess the land of Canaan. This promise could not be broken. It was unconditional. As the rest of the OT indicates, Abraham’s descendants did in fact receive this promise. They successfully inherited the land and established a great nation there.

    God swore to keep this promise because it was a necessary step in his larger kingdom purposes. God chose the family of Abraham to be the instrument through which his original purposes for humanity would be fulfilled. As God commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful, to fill the earth, to subdue it and to rule (Genesis 1:28), Abraham was promised that his progeny would possess the land of Canaan as the beginning point of successful worldwide dominion (Romans 4:13). The Abrahamic covenant established an unfailing direction for God’s imperial plan. In this sense, the Abrahamic covenant was unconditional.

    On the other side, however, participation in and reception of Abraham’s promised blessings was quite conditional. Despite the fact that God promised Abraham’s descendants the land, this promise did not guarantee this promise for particular individuals, families or groups.

    After the covenant initiation of Genesis 15 and turning away from God to have a child through Hagar in Genesis 16, God called Abraham to a blameless life for the confirmation of his covenant in Genesis 17:1. This order of events makes it clear that even Abraham’s personal reception of the promises made to him in covenant were contingent on his loyalty. As we saw, on a literary level Genesis 17 focused on Moses’ early readers’ obligations to observe circumcision. Their reception of these promises depended on fulfilling obligations. Yet, the command for circumcision was also explicitly directed to Abraham himself as the immediate recipient of this covenant arrangement.

    You must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you … every male among you shall be circumcised. (Genesis 17:9)
    If Abraham or his descendants failed to be circumcised, they would be “cut off” (venikeretah; Genesis 17:14). To be “cut off” in the Mosaic period was to receive a sentence of exile or death (see Exodus 12:15, 19; Leviticus 7:25, 27). The curse of cutting in circumcision symbolized what would happen to those who flagrantly violated covenant loyalty. Neither Abraham himself, nor his descendants would escape the judgment of God if they were not circumcised. This is why later in the chapter we read that “Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on the same day (Genesis 17:26).”
    As we have suggested, circumcision was a synecdoche for a blameless life in covenant with God. Genesis makes it clear that merely having the sign of circumcision did not in itself guarantee participation in the promise to Abraham. Abraham himself was circumcised, but also proved to be faithful to God. Isaac and Jacob followed suit by serving God. Ishmael and Esau, however, were circumcised but did not receive Abraham’s inheritance. In this sense, the covenant with Abraham was quite conditional. No one had the right to assume that they would be heirs of the covenant promises without fulfilling the condition of fidelity. Both Abraham and his descendants would receive the blessings promised through covenant only as they fulfilled (however imperfectly) their covenant obligations.

    In sum, there were senses in which the covenant with Abraham was both unconditional and conditional. Abraham was promised by divine oath that in one way or another his descendants would come out of Egypt and possess the land of Canaan. But at the same time, for particular individuals, families and groups to enjoy this promise, they had to fulfill covenant obligations.

  25. As I promised before, you get the last word.

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