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Your King Has Come - Indelible Grace
The Jesus Most Christians Don’t Know (Part III)
Posted by Brian Thornton on November 2, 2009
Many Christians think of Jesus as a fair-haired, soft-spoken, open-to-all teacher who did anything He could to reach those around Him. How curious it is, then, to learn that He purposefully hid saving truths to certain people. Jesus would teach certain things in coded language specifically so that only certain people would hear and understand. Don’t take just my word for it. Let’s hear Jesus Himself explain what He was doing:
a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea, and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land. And he was teaching them many things in parables…And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that they may indeed see but not perceive,and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven. – Mark 4:1-2, 10-12
What? This has got to be a mistake! You mean to tell me that Jesus was purposefully hiding truth to certain people because if He did not hide it they would have understood and repented and believed? Surely this is just an isolated account of this type of action by Jesus? Not so! It is recorded in all four gospels, and even referenced by Paul in Romans! Here are Paul’s incredible remarks of this strange thing Jesus was doing to hide the truth:
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” – Romans 11:5-8
That really is incredible…that God would intentionally hide the truth to certain people. Why would He do this if He was going to have Jesus die for everyone, as so many within the Christian community believe today? And why would Jesus not reveal Himself to everyone if he was going to die for them? Consider these truths from the mouth of the Savior:
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. – John 5:21
And again…
All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. – Matthew 11:27
That is incredible! You mean to tell me that the ones who know the Father, the One true God, are only those to whom the Son has willed Him to be revealed? Does this bother you? Is this the Jesus you know and love? Does this go against everything you have learned about who God is and what the Son did on this earth, and for whom He did it? Don’t shoot the messenger. It’s all there for you to go read for yourself. This is the Jesus most Christians don’t know.
thomastwitchell said
Who would follow a stingy God who loves particular people? I mean to tell ya…
emmilglenn said
I believe God in John 3:16 when he says he loved the ‘world’, and not a select few.
We got to read those texts in context. Take the John 5 example, I’m quoting from the NKJV
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
So basically taking that verse into the whole context, Jesus will give life to those who honor him.
I’m sure the other texts above can be explained when taken in its entire context.
Brian Thornton said
Did God love Esau?
Did God love the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites?
You imply that “world” must mean every human being. Where is the context for that in the text? Often in Scripture, “world” means only believers.
Here is one example: “The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” – John 1:29.
Here is another: “For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” – John 6:33.
And another: “that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.” – 2 Cor. 5:19
Did Jesus take away the sin of every human being? Did He give life to every human being? Did He reconcile every human being to Himself? World does not have to mean every person, and rarely (if ever) does it mean every person. John 3:16 uses the word ‘kosmos’ which is translated ‘world’, but Scripture is clear that God has a special people for Himself, and it is only those people for whom Christ came and died and rose again.
Grace and Peace
emmilglenn said
I have to disagree with you that Christ died for only his special people. He died for everyone, It is just up to us whether we choose to accept his grace or not.
Those texts you used don’t just mean believers. The texts you use have the context of world=world, not world=believers. That’s poor exegesis on your part.
John 3:16 says, …”that whoever believes in Him…” So If Christ only died for only his ‘Special’ people, but someone who’s not part of that ’special’ group comes along and believes in Him all of a sudden then what?
It sounds a lot like predestination to me. The problem with that viewpoint is that it contradicts the very character of God, a God of love. Love lets us choose. If he chose ahead of time who was and wasn’t going to be saved, what’s the point of giving us free will.
God does love everyone, even Esau, and those lost nations you mentioned. Just like a parent of a naughty kid who just ignores and constantly goes against his parent’s wishes. Just as a parent can be patient enough with that child, and still continue to love him in spite of all the bad things, how much more would our heavenly father love them. And sometimes, you gotta let a child go and let them face the consequences of their own actions. We don’t know the extent of how God tried to reach out to them, but from what we know in the Bible, they were lost, so God let them go.
thomastwitchell said
EG-
Go to Brians current post on this subject and check my response there.
You said:
Did you read those texts? Brian asked pointed questions, answer them. Don’t accuse, answer. How can you say that Christ took away the sin of the world and say that world means all men of all time in all places without exception, past, present and future? Did he or did he not take away sin? Then for what are men hell-bound? If you conclude world here means all men, then why doesn’t sin here mean all sin?
Your exegetical hermeneutic must apply across the board or you are duplicitous, double-tongued. So which is it, Christ took away all sin of all men, or just some sin of all men, or all sin of some and none of others? Just how do you define the object and subject of Christ’s taking away of sin. In any case the rule would still have to be applied across the board. The problem, of course, is that only one of these combinations leads to orthodoxy, the others, to heresy.
But, God can’t choose, right? It is always interesting how the love assigned to God by universalists is so inferior to the love that they assign to themselves. With man love discriminates says the universalist, and see, we are created in the image of God able to choose. But then, when confronted with God’s predestinating love, they say hold on a dog gone moment, God is love and he can not not love me… he has no right to choose.
John 3:16 is just one verse in a string of contextual comments and must be balanced with them, so don’t forget what came before or followed, okay?
Scripture concludes we are not just naughty kids, but children of wrath. It says we have a nature that is evil. We don’t just sin, we are sin in a sense. And in what way is there anything worth loving in sin? Jesus said of those who wanted to choose him that they were of their father the devil, speaking of their nature. And this is another place you get it wrong EG, you think that all mankind are children of God. But that doesn’t make sense in light of the very same gospel of John that says in chapter one that those who are born of God are the ones given the right to become children. We are not children of God until we are concieved by the Spirit, according to John 3, and that only if we are can we understand what is taught in the Gospel (see also later in the same gospel that only those who have their eyes and ears openned by God can see and hear and understand and be saved and not all are so blessed). And by the way, those men who wanted to follow, rejected Christ when they were told it wasn’t up to them to choose.
You see, to take your approach inverts and up-ends everything taught in Scripture about salvation. You would condemn predestination when it is found thoughout the Bible. You take umbrage even when the fact is that the Arminian upholds it. And you seem to make God after your image. You say God does not choose (predestinate), nor can he, because he is love. But God cannot do other than what he wills, can he? You say, you can do what even God cannot, to will other than what he wills, to choose what he does not, and not only that but God must do as you choose because he is love. So you would say that it is not God who works in you the willing and doing of his good pleasure, though Scripture does, because love allows for choice? Instead, it is you who works the willingness in you, right? And just what does that prayer we pray mean, “Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven?” Do you suppose that what has been established in heaven won’t happen on earth because of your choice? Do you really think that the will of man is equal to or greater than the will of God who accomplishes all that he purposes? That he only does what he does after the will of man?
Brian Thornton said
Oh boy…where to start…
Thomas has some good points, so I will not try to go over what he has already said. I will make just a few brief replies, because there is too much here to really get into it.
Scripture, please? Where in God’s Word is there ever any teaching that fallen, dead-in-sin creatures choose to accept God’s grace or not?
On the contrary, the poor exegesis is making ‘world’ in those passages mean every person, which results in all people having their sin taken away, being made alive, and being reconciled to God. Are you a Universalist, EG? DO you really believe that everyone’s sin is taken away, that all people are made alive, and that every human being is reconciled to God? Good exegesis is that which interprets Scripture in a way that does not do damage to the rest of Scripture.
This is when it is crucial to know how to look past the English translation and see what the authors actually wrote. The word “whoever” is not in John 3:16. The Greek phrase is ‘pas ho pisteuwn’, and it means ‘all those believing’,not ‘everyone can believe’. John 3:16 is simply a truth that all those believing in Christ have eternal life. The text does not teach that everyone can believe. It is actually an exclusive statement, not an inclusive one as you and so many others try to make it. John 3:16 addresses only those who believe…John 3:18 addresses everyone else – “He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed…”
Ummm…predestination fills the pages of Scripture. To deny that is to, quite frankly, display an ignorance of the Bible. You may interpret the teachings of predestination differently, but please do not attempt to say that it is not in Scripture. God’s Word is clear that He has determined everything beforehand. That’s all predestination is…to determine something beforehand.
“Love” let’s us choose? Where is this taught in Scripture? The Bible teaches that, prior to regeneration, we are not even able to understand spiritual things, because they are spiritually understood. How does one choose something they can;t even understand? Scripture teaches that, while in the flesh (spiritually dead prior to salvation), we are at emnity with God, and have no desire to do anything to please Him, and in fact CANNOT please Him. Yet you have man doing THE most pleasing thing on his own…choosing God! I thought Scripture proclaimed that salvation is of the Lord…you have stated that salvation is of man’s choice.
By the way, whoever said man has free will? Does Scripture teach that? Where? God has free will…man’s will is in bondage to sin.
Really? So, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated”, means exactly what? God choosing one over the other before they were even born means exactly what?
Brother, if we are going to have any meaningful discussion from this point forward, you must address these issues.
I look forward to your response to these points and questions.
Grace and Peace
emmilglenn said
Only checking back here today. Quick comment before I respond to both posts:
I’m not that good with html, so if you can show me how to “quote” that’d be awesome.
Here are some definitions for kosmos (world) as seen in John 3:16-17
kosmos is the dynamic equivalent of the Hebrew term tebel, denoting “world” throughout its nearly two hundred occurrences.
There are a variety of connotations associated with this term.
The meaning “world,” denoting the realm of humankind inhabited by various
kingdoms and nations, is indicated in Mat. 4: 8; 13:38; 26:13; Mar. 14:19;
16:15; Luk. 12:30; Rom. 1: 8; 5:12; 1Ti. 1:15. In Joh. 18:36,
Christ explicitly declares, however, that his kingdom is not of this “world.” The “world” is said to be illuminated by the true light of the gospel of Christ (cf. Mat. 5:14; Joh. 1: 9; 8:12; 9:5; 12:46).
In related contexts, kosmos also denotes the “world” as the universal
community of humankind. This “world” is subject to divine judgment and
wrath (Mat. 18: 7; Joh. 3:19; 12:31; 16:8; Heb. 11: 7; 1Jo. 2: 2); and is also
alienated from God (Joh. 14:27; 15:18 ff.; 16:28, 33; 17:6, 11 ff.; 1Co. 1:20 ff.; 3:19 ff.; 5:10; Php. 2:15; Jam. 1:27; 1Jo. 2:15 ff.; 4:4 ff.). Such a “world” is therefore identified as unbelieving and subject to divine condemnation (cf. Joh. 1:10, 29; 8:23; 1Co. 11:32; 2Pe. 1: 4; 2:5). Joh. 14:17 affirms that the “world” is incapable of discerning spiritual truth, and it is also declared to be ruled by the devil (cf. Joh. 14:30; 16:11; Eph. 2: 2).
In positive contexts, the“world” is granted saving grace, and belief in Christ (cf. Joh. 17:21). It is also designated as the object of God’s love (cf. Joh. 3:16 ff.) and the salvation of Christ (cf. Joh. 4:42; 6:33; 12:47; 2Co. 5:19; 1Jo. 4:14). kosmos also refers to the “world” in terms of the universe at the point of creation (cf. Mat. 13:35; 24:21; Luk. 11:50; Joh. 17: 5, 24; Act. 17:24; Rom. 1:20; Eph. 1:14; Heb. 4: 3; 9:26; 1Pe. 1:20; Rev. 13: 8, 17).
Gal. 4: 3; Col. 2: 8, 20 refer to the “world” as identification with the universe in relation to its elemental spirits, an understanding embraced by the pagans. Joh. 12:25 refers to “this world” in the sense of “this life,” “this age.”
In addition, kosmos denotes “world” in the figurative sense of the sum
total of one’s realized ambition for wealth, power, and prestige (cf. Mat. 16:26; Mar. 8:36; Luk. 9:25). The term is also used hyperbolically, referring to the “world” as a great number of people (cf. Joh. 12:19; 18:20).
I don’t really see where it can mean believers only. Even in looking at John 3:17,
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
If we sub ‘world’ for ‘only believers’, that “only believers” through Him MIGHT be saved. Including ‘might’ in there tells me that there are some people in the world that won’t believe, but there was the hope that they would come around to it. Why would he include might be saved if we KNOW believers will be saved. Must mean more than believers that he died for.
I just have doubts about the view that only Christ died for believers.
It’s kind of nerveracking don’t you think? Assuming Christ died for only believers, and Me/you are believers right? But how are we sure? I can believe now, but If I wasn’t chosen beforehand for Christ to die for me, if I wasn’t part of that elect group, am I saved? Does my belief count? To me Christianity is inclusive, and not an exclusive club. The whole predestination/elect concept promoted by Calvinism does no good for general mankind. (Don’t mean to offend you if you guys are) There is one Calvinist church near my church. One of their members left that congregation and joined my church. He told me they do zero outreach or evangelism, because they believe that if God already had his chosen people, God would find a way to reach them. That church has been around for a while, and it hasn’t grown at all. In fact I’ve been told is slowly dwindling.
Contrast that with the work of Paul and the apostles of the early church. They were busy telling everyone about the good news, and the church grew. I believe that’s how Christ would have wanted it done. I would love to hear your views on that.
In Christ,
Brian Thornton said
Once again, you have set up impossible hypotheticals, and have not addressed the issues I have raised.
By the way, if what you say about the mindset of the church that person came from is true, they are not a calvinistic church, but are rather HYPER-calvinist, or ANTI-calvinist, as R.C. Sproul would say. If they truly believe what this person says they do, then they are an enemy of the gospel. True Calvinists believe whole-heartedly in evangelism, and have, in fact, proven to be some of the most fervent evangelists in history.
emmilglenn said
“Once again, you have set up impossible hypotheticals, and have not addressed the issues I have raised.”
The last bit were rhetorical questions to show you the flaws of your logic. I’ll take your word on that church, maybe they’re too reformed.
You haven’t addressed 70% of my comment regarding ‘kosmos’?
I just showed you that kosmos from those definitions can’t mean “only believers” like you claim, especially given in context with verse 17. So that text alone should show us that Christ did indeed die for the ‘world’, but only those who believe and accept his grace will be saved. Simple exegesis of that text.
Brian Thornton said
Here’s a simple line of questioning for you:
If Jesus died for everyone and paid for everyone’s sins, then what are people in hell for? How can they be spending an eternity in hell for something that has already received its punishment and payment?
emmilglenn said
I’ll give you a coles note version since this box is too short, to do that study in depth. Maybe I’ll write a post on my page or send you a link?
The concept of hell is probably the main doctrine that makes more atheists, and drives more people away from the Church, than any other concept. It’s a very contradiction of God’s character of love. So let me clear it up for you.
The Bible says that there is no “hell”, as in people burning right now. Don’t get me wrong, I believe the wicked will get punished, but not in eternal torment down below. According to Scripture, Hell is the final punishment (2nd Death) when God establishes the New Jerusalem on earth, as seen in Revelation 20. It will be like the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah, when God rains down fire and brimstone, and the effects will be “eternal”. That’s what the term means. Sodom and Gomorrah were never rebuilt, God’s punishment lasted forever or eternally in this case.
Think about it. What was the first lie ever told? “You shall not surely die”. This lie has crept into Christianity, with the concept of an immortal soul. The immortality of the soul concept was borrowed from Socrates/Plato, who studied Egyptian mythology. The Catholic church included it in its doctrines and now we have it as a popular, yet misguided belief. Did you know that no where in the Bible is “immortal soul” mentioned. Only God has immortality (1 Tim 6:16), and it was Satan’s lie to Eve that if she ate of the fruit, she’d be like God (Immortal).
So to tie it all together, what are the wages of sin in Romans 6:23? Death, not eternal punishment. It continues, “but the gift of God is eternal life”.
It ties in perfectly with John 3:16, “…that whoever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life. Not everlasting torment. Perish implies something short lived: (i.e. perishes in a car accident. Please bring non-perishable items, things that can last a while.)
Hope this helps. God bless.
emmilglenn said
I forgot to explain what happens when you die? You ’sleep’, just as Jesus called it.
Brian Thornton said
Oh boy…
Well, at least I finally got to the bottom of your error. And it is a big error.
Scripture cannot be any clearer – Jesus cannot be any clearer – that the punishment for the wicked is eternal, just as the reward for the righteous will be eternal. No wonder the atonement means nothing to you…for the fate of the wicked in your view is one of annihilation…they, according to you, will know nothing of God’s wrath and judgment for any duration. Scripture rebukes you on this, and does so clearly:
It is eternal, my friend. It is never-ending. It is everlasting.
But we are not going to have a discussion on the existence of hell. I can see now that we have no foundation upon which to talk about the issues here. I pray you will come to know the truth.
Brian Thornton said
I would like to apologize to Glenn (he is the one who has attempted to make a case for Jesus dying for everyone, and then putting forth that there is no literal hell or eternal punishment for the wicked). If I had gone to his site, I would never have begun a discussion with him on these issues because he is a Seventh-Day Adventist. He and I have no basis on which to carry on a meaningful discussion of these things, seeing as he worships a different Jesus than I do.
Sorry, Glen…next time I will check first to make sure the person I am talking to at least holds to biblical, orthodox Christianity before I begin a discussion on matters such as these.
May God grant you grace to know His Son. Until we can agree on who Jesus is, and what it means to be one of His disciples, we can have no meaningful discussions on other topics.
Brian Thornton said
ps to Glen,
I would be more than willing to discuss what you believe as a Seventh-Day Adventist, so if you would like to do that, send me an email and we can do that privately. I would try to have that discussion in a public forum here, but I fear it would quickly spiral into meaningless accusation rather than being biblically focused.